Nazis

[Senator Gaius]

Ok, Akiiryu has expressed a protest against Secret Nazis for that name. What i think we need to discuss is....is it wrong to call your nation something like that, and is Akiiryu in the right to be offended in this context, even though Secret Nazis (who is my brother) is not a nazi?

[Akiiryu]

I want to stress I don't think your brother is a Nazi. I just think there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed - that includes the use of Nazi symbols.

[Senator Gaius]

Yes, but (and i know he didn't mean it like this) the swastika is also a symbol of the Christian and Buddhist religions. Is it right to attack the symbol, knowing it has other connotations (but yes, he obviously meant it in a nazi way)

[Koona]

I recomend this link:

 

http://www.equilism.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1351

 

(U have to registered to view, sorry)

[Senator Gaius]

Whats on it, if i have very little time to check?

[Akiiryu]

True, but the swastika as used in Asian religions (also, might I add by pre-Christin European socities as well as in some christain symbolism) were turned the other way. Moreover, for most people on this board (excuse the assumption here) it only has one meaning - Nazis. And, as you said in the case in question the symbol was used directly with the word Nazi. Look I am not trying to be a morlistic prick here, but it is an offensive symbol, probably more so to other people on this board than me. If Giffe wants to run his country like a fascist dictatorship, fine I'm cool with that. Just don't use the symbols of a hateful regime that was directly responsible for the deaths of millions of people. God, the world is currently celebrating 60 years of V-E day.

[Senator Gaius]

A fair point, and don't get me wrong Akiiryu, i completely understand and agree with your position (for once ), but what are we gonna do? Censure him, maybe?

 

If so, i think we need more people involved.

[Koona]

Well the link is to the debate on our forum, just about these things.

[Senator Gaius]

Hmmm... i don't think the debate is about the nazis, because we are all agreed that what they did was morally undefendable. The real question that Akiiryu has raised is one of symbolism, and should we be aloud to use their symbols.....unless that's what you were discussing, Koona

[Akiiryu]

I don't want to censure him - God, I don't even know him - but given his nation is, I guess, 2 days old (popluation 7 million - yes I've looked) he could change to a new nation. At THE VERY LEAST he should change his flag - alhough there is a distinct possibility some people might still be offended by the name even if the does this.

 

I want to stress this isn't - even though it might seem like it - an attack on Giffe's person.

 

I'm not going to say anything else on this until I hear from the mods.

[Senator Gaius]

Ok then. (i always have to have the last word)

[Tagmatium Rules]

Won't the NS mods come down on it harshly, though?

[Nevareion]

Swastika flags are against game rules so if a mod sees it he will be in trouble unless he changes it.

[Koona]

Hmmm... i don't think the debate is about the nazis, because we are all agreed that what they did was morally undefendable. The real question that Akiiryu has raised is one of symbolism, and should we be aloud to use their symbols.....unless that's what you were discussing, Koona

It's exactly what it's about.

[Senator Gaius]

Well, times change. He has a new nation now, Plumpuddings or something like that....no nazis anywhere.

[Phil VII]

Hmm, i think i missed this debate, although i did get a PM about it...

 

In my opinion, yes some people will be offended by a nazi flag and the swastika, but personally i do not mind it, or a person naming thier nation after the nazis, there are plenty of evil mass murderers out there in history, but as Hitler and the nazi's were the ones in recent history that affected western europe, people go and get massivly offended by it.

 

The swastiks flag IS banned by the mods though, so it was right that he was repremanded for that, although i have no problem with the use of the word nazi in a nation name

[Europa]

I appreciate the name-change from "Secret Nazis" to "Puddingdom". This way noone will be annoyed or offended, it prevents a lot of confusion.

 

As for the word "nazi" in a nations name. Personally I don't like it, which mean I wouldn't create such nation, but I'm not gonna start censoring words... where would it all end? For example, if someone wants to role-play a facsist dictatorship, and wants to use a swastika, that could be allowed.

 

My rules are practically the invisionfree Terms of Service.

Those ToS don't mention anything about swastica's in specific, but anyone registering on an invisionfree-forum agrees not to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. Invisionfree also explicitly forbids all racist contence.

 

This does not mean anything is allowed. Purposely using swastica's to offend someone isn't allowed. Making hatefull posts isn't allowed.

There's nothing about spouting facist propaganda that in those rules, but it would be heavily frowned upon... I would suggest maybe that person should reconsider Europa as his home region. This ain't surpressing anyones freedom of speech, but one has to respect certain common values.

 

 

Be aware, Nationstates doesn't allow swastica's in flags!

On a side-note, here's what NS says about what you can't post: Nationstates forbids any content that is either obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory or spam. This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields, any messages you write, images you post, or any other content you upload or link to NationStates. If you do, your nation will be deleted. See the site's Terms and Conditions for details.

[Orioni]

Well well well.. Let me keep this short and simple.

 

I know that the swastika originally meant something else, but most people recognise it as a nazi-symbol. As a human in general and a historian in particular I have little appreciation for this.

 

EE noticed, in our admin room, that the red band with swastika has clearly been added to the image, making this a personal decision. I used the administration CP to remove the avatar of Lord Giffe'. He can always upload a new one, if he likes. Just nothing like that.

[Tamurin]

I missed that discussion, but I agree with Orioni. This symbol stands for pain, suffering and deaths of millions of people. There's nothing "cool" about using it for a nation.

 

Dictatorship or Fascism - fine, play what you want. But show some respect for history and those who suffered under this banner.

[Tagmatium Rules]

What would you (the forum members in general) feel about some one that was a neo-Nazi (or similar) and used such symbols or names? This person wouldn't be making anything up or what have you. Would this be more or less offensive?

[Orioni]

What would you (the forum members in general) feel about some one that was a neo-Nazi (or similar) and used such symbols or names? This person wouldn't be making anything up or what have you. Would this be more or less offensive?

I believe you are asking: if someone really is a neo-Nazi, would that make it ok to use such symbols or names? My reply to that is: of course not, the use of such symbols will be restricted, no matter if your a fanatic or just playing around. It would be rather weird to tolerate such a thing if someone really means it. In my country we have laws against racism, and I don't think we have to put up with racism on this forum either. Discrimination is a big NO NO in my opinion.

 

You can still have a discussion about it, but like civilised people.

[Akiiryu]

 

Dictatorship or Fascism - fine, play what you want. But show some respect for history and those who suffered under this banner.

Well put sir.

[Tamurin]

What would you (the forum members in general) feel about some one that was a neo-Nazi (or similar) and used such symbols or names? This person wouldn't be making anything up or what have you. Would this be more or less offensive?

 

In Germany, we have a saying: "No freedom for the enemies of freedom."

 

Nazis are enemies of freedom, so they mustn't get a possibility to make their archaic and primitive ideology public. In Germany, all Nazi symbols are forbidden and racism is a crime. If a Nazi was here using these symbols I wouldn't feel comfortable anymore.

[Mongol-Swedes]

Heh, speaking of Neo-Nazis (here's the cynical side), I was in a bar when I was 16 years old during Midsommer in Sweden with a childhood friend of mine, when a couple Skinheads showed up (they're pretty well-known around here, with occasional surges of activity that is put down pretty hard by the openly Lutheran, but not religiously biased, government) and started causing general hell. me and Alex(the dude I was with) get into a 'verbal altercation' with 'em until a policeman who was off-duty broke it up and we returned to our drinks.

 

Now, guns are illegal to own privately in Sweden, but, naturally, that won't stop any extremist political groups or criminal organizations from doing what they please. So the two Skinheads left us alone for about three hours and eventually came back, obviously refusing to have their beliefs denied. One of 'em happened to have a good ol' Makarov (The Red Slugger, I like to call it), and put two shots into Alex's chest and one in my arm when I went to disable the nazi. Fortunately Alex survived, he's even strong enough to get into the Swedish military (which is conscription-based for a mandatory year of service, if you qualify).

 

So, what's the point of this story? There are naturally some beliefs in our world that instigate more violence than others. That is not to say that everyone who believes in it will be inclined to acts of open violence, but the statistics, and stories like mine, are evidence enough that Nazism, like any ideolgy, should be considered with an open mind, but it is not an ideology that should be openly accepted with warm hearts and open arms, because a Nazi's life is, according to my experiences as a former member of a Neo-Nazi street gang, a life of struggle, where one must constantly struggle against the 'inferior species' to 'preserve racial purity'.

 

In other words, it's a constant war where the end result supports a minority and disregards the needs and concerns of the majority, where mass murder is justified in the name of a warped sense of 'peace'.