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Baltican Expansion Proposal


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Baltican Expansion Plan 

As most probably know by now, I've been quite public with my plans to expand further into central Argis. Seeing as the new edition of the NPC nation of Hveradalur has basically created a little packet between me and Ahrana (that I personally dislike looking at because of border gore) I think it's about time this pocket gets filled in. Now due to the size of this area I have two main proposals for how this space can be filled, which either involves a full annexation of this area by me, or a partial annexation followed by the creation of a couple more npcs. 

 

Scenario 1 Full Annexation

The full annexation of the remaining lands of central Argis would be a historic expansion. Me and Ahrana roughly planned out some of the lore behind this expansion and it goes as follows. Included here is also a map of what the expansion looks like. 

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-The area that comprises the western lands of Central Argis is known by the Balticans as Slavija (Land of the Slavs) due to the large number of Slavic tribes in the area. This territory eventually comes under the control of the Ahranian empire who most likely conquered the territory during a yet not agreed upon time. 

-The Ahranians would end up exploiting the people and land of Slavija, mainly for timber which went into creating the Ahranian navy. The people themselves would most likely also be used as something similar to serfs by lesser Ahranian nobles. 

-Eventually the territory of Slavija would be divided from a singular kingdom, to three smaller ones ruled by a cadet branch of the Ahranian royal family. This would be the breaking point for the slavs who would rise up, and receive major support from the Kingdom of Baltica. The uprising took place right around the decline of the Ahranian empire, and after a brutal war between Baltica and Ahrana over the territory, the slavs would be successful in achieving their independence. 

-At this point the Balticans offered the now independent kingdoms of Slavija to join Baltica in return for access to Baltican ports and the growing mineral trade. The Slavijan kingdoms of Hugostan, Krvichansan and Vokescha would end up uniting with the Baltican Kingdom, becoming duchies. They were granted large self autonomy and began to form a growing relationship between the many Dolch duchies that were then dominating the Baltican economy and political structure. 

This lore is prone to change but it will follow a similar structure. The main questions from Scenario 1 is how the addition of another large ethnic group and yet more people change the outcome of the Baltican civil war. Now, no matter what the second Baltican civil war still happens for the same reason it happened in the first place, this being the huge ethnic tensions between the Native Balticans and the Dolch. The Slavs in this scenario couldnt and wouldnt support the Dolch, seeing as they want to create a dolch led ethno state. The bigger question is would they support Raskia and the North Baltican Federation ? Eh maybe. Realistically speaking they would, simply because it's better than the alternative of supporting Dokestva. Would they try to seek their own independence ? Yes, small groups would definitely push for the independence of the slavic people from Baltica. Now I could create some small npcs and rp them as states that would have declared independence during the civil war; similar to what the original plan for Dokestva was. I call this scenario 1.5 and it looks something like this. 

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(sorry for the worse quality Mac is horrible)

I guess there would be a chance for these states to slowly be reintegrated into Baltica through the planned Amber Lake Economic Community (ALEC) 

Scenario 2 Partial Annexation + NPCS

Scenario 2 involves a partial expansion followed up by some new NPC states, similar to scenario 1.5, but it has the Slavic states continue existing without ever having been a part of the Kingdom of Baltica. However one of the states (Hugostan) would end up joining Baltica due to being economically tied to what is now Dokestva. The proposal would look something like this. 

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The Northern state would be Krvichansan and the Southern one would be Vokescha. The goal with this states is to also slowly integrate them economically through ALEC and eventually annex them into the Baltican Federation. So these are my two expansion plans, tagging @Ahrana for permission, although we have agreed on most things through dms. This has been long in the planning, and I just want to hear the mods suggestion on which expansion seems like the better way to go. After that I feel like it will be good to post numbers i.e how this expansion will effect my pop and economy. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Scenario 1 – Full Annexation
I’m not opposed to a full annexation, I think it’d be the cleanest of the scenarios and help your nation pull itself up to be a genuine thorn in the side of Ahrana’s growing new empire, however the biggest issue here is how to properly integrate this large Slavija into your civil war without breaking suspension of disbelief. I think in this case you really only have two options if you decide to RP the expansion historically:

1) Slavija as a whole secedes from Baltica just before or just after the civil war starts, remains neutral throughout the conflict, and re-join Baltica once they know the Federation won’t try to bully them.
2) You create an ‘add-on’ to your civil war thread that takes place in the west over Slavija, with the Federation moving west to reconquer Slavija.

I believe (B) is the most realistic, and it gives members who wanted to join the Baltica civil war a chance to throw their chips in. Both however would basically mean halving your expansions, half taking place historically and the other half taking place after the current events of the civil war. The gap in time could be explained in-universe as the Federation consolidating power (which you could state in-RP once the modern half of the expansions take place) or in a period of emergency infrastructure reconstruction (which I would strongly urge you to do when you can).

 

Scenario 2 – Partial Annexation + NPCs
This one I believe would be the cleanest, all you’d need to do is redraw a bunch of maps to incorporate the expanded lands and reorganise your cities to match. After reading your civil war thread I couldn’t find any uses of distances beyond city-scale conflicts.

I assume the land directly annexed by Baltica would be RPed historically, with the NPCs integrated and eventually merged through ALEC. If so I would like to see these RP expansions split into 2-3 separate expansions to fully detail out the annexed lands and the two NPCs. It’ll also mean you won’t run out of annexable land within half a year.

 

My only point of contention with your historic expansion plan is why would Hugostan, Krvichansan, and Vokesch rebel against Ahrana for independence than immediately turn around and integrate themselves into Baltica? Not saying this is a deal breaker, but perhaps in the historic expansion itself you find a way to justify this beyond Baltica aiding their rebellion. All in all however I think this is a mighty fine expansion plan, you just need to figure out how this ties into your current civil war.

(Ping @Iverica as the local admin for approval, and your neighbours of @Ahrana and @Struma to make sure they see this)

Edited by Xio (see edit history)
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Approved to choose either one of the scenarios. RP attempt should follow Xio's comments:

 

1) "Both however would basically mean halving your expansions, half taking place historically and the other half taking place after the current events of the civil war."


-Adding to this, partially also as a PSA: historical expansions where land is gained "in the past" should be avoided (i.e. expansions where once the RP is complete, canon will assume that it has always been a part of annexer nation). You can have something where it was a historic expansion but was lost (thereby explaining why Baltica's borders in the near-past/present are as they were/are). This could be accomplished as Xio said above. We generally don't allow pure historic and retroactive expansions.


2) "If so I would like to see these RP expansions split into 2-3 separate expansions to fully detail out the annexed lands and the two NPCs."

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Actual Proposal

So I think I prefer my first proposal, and I plan to make my expansion a mix between historical and modern. My idea is that Baltica owned the region of Slavija as a de facto satellite state that was economically tied with Baltica. As Baltican (Primararly Ras) began expanding and moving eastwards, they slowly began to outpopulate local slavs and these territories slowly began wanting to join Baltica. These areas would include the Perkunia valley, but the Balticans never expanded past that central river. Eventually Baltica would issue an ultimatum to the then united Slavija, to give these majority Ras areas, as well as some extra territory in return for both access to Baltican ports on the amber lake, as well as exemption from trade tariffs. This was reluctantly accepted, but caused Slavija to split in two, a more Baltican influenced south, and a more rebellious North.

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(Flag of the Expansion and NPCS. In red are the capitals, ignore the one in Ahrana)

Southern NPC: Republic of Vokescha

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(Flag of Vokescha)

Vokescha is the southern Slavijan state. It was formally what remained of the Kingdom of Slavija after the North (Ulgistan) split off, mainly due to the acceptance of the 1887 Ultimatum. When the North split off, Vokescha attempted to fight Ulgistan in order to reclaim it, but would fail in its endeavours. This would ultimately lead to the resignation of king Boris III and the establishment of the Republic of Vokescha in 1890. 

Vokescha is inhabited mainly by Ahranian Slavs, with small communities of Dolch and Ras. Its economy consists of metal refining, as well as construction material manufacturing. Due to its very hilly and sometimes mountainous geography it is unable to farm enough food to sustain itself, and relies on Baltica and Ulgistan to provide it with most of its food. Being a landlocked state it depends heavily on Baltican ports to export its goods. Unlike Ulgistan it has a very close relationship with Baltica, largely due to its economic reliance on Baltica. 

Its current population is 6.2 Million, with a GDP per capita of 12.4k. Its capital is the city of Prakovice, the historic capital of the Slavijan territory.

 

Northern NPC: Ulgistan (Renamed)  

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(Flag of Ulgistan)

Ulgistan is the Northern Slavijan state. After the 1887 Ultimatum, many people in Ulgistan were angered by the surrender of so much Northern Land to Baltica, predominantly the Perkunia valley. This would lead to the Northern state rising up, believing that the southern Nobles no longer valued the North or its people. After a brief war (Which Ulgistan won) it would go on to proclaim itself as a Republic, being one of the first in central Argis. 

Ulgistan (Similarly to Vokescha) is primarily inhabited by Ahranian Slavs, with a sizable Ras population in its Western Territories. Its name is deprived from the Ulgistan river that makes up the nation's border with Baltica. Ulgistan continues to claim the Perkunia valley, despite it having little to no Ulgistanians in it. Its economy is mainly focused around aero engineering as well fertiliser manufacturing. 

Its current population is 3.6 Million, with a GDP per capita of 18.6K. Its capital is the city of Lurvingri.

 

As for Baltica, i think Baltica would grow by about 2 million from the historic land it got (Not counting the population lost in the civil war). As for the economy, to make it easier on myself i'll just say that the economy stays the same (since it would go down from the civil war anyways). I feel like this expansion is the best of both proposals, and still leaves me with the ability to RP the eventual integration of all of the Western Territories…

 

Ping for @Struma and @Ahrana for approval




 

Edited by Baltica (see edit history)
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So, I believe you could use some historical justification for the expansions. I agree with @Iverica that this area should be 2-3 expansions and/or NPCs which ever. I also believe the Expansion should be a modern RP not a Historical one, you can use some historical references and stuff, but I would advise against a full Historical RP as it would require a lot of rewriting for both of us.

What I mean by you could use some historical justification is that at one point you could say that area after the Ahranaians left were really close with the rising Balitcans at the time but never really joined as they preferred to be independent. The reasons given could be the suspicions of the Balts motives and ambitions in the area, the desire to be independent after a long and harsh Ahranaian Rule that made any form of commitment with a foreign power undesired, and there could be a few more if I took the time to think some up. 

When you get to the modern times if you play your Federation off very well those people in those nations would want to join up with your government as they see the government holds promise. NOW, that is a big one and it reiterates what I hope for the future of Baltica as a whole. These people have seen war and strife every other decade and they do not want to be dragged into another ethnic war or political war between factions. As they are half and half, Slavs and Balts, they would have the strong will to protect what is theirs originally and have no regrets in what actions they would have to take. So, this area could either be your best friend or your worst enemy. 

 

Other than that I support what decision you choose but I urge you to take the route that is best suited for you and the area @Baltica.

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42 minutes ago, Baltica said:

Actual Proposal

So I think I prefer my first proposal, and I plan to make my expansion a mix between historical and modern. My idea is that Baltica owned the region of Slavija as a de facto satellite state that was economically tied with Baltica. As Baltican (Primararly Ras) began expanding and moving eastwards, they slowly began to outpopulate local slavs and these territories slowly began wanting to join Baltica. These areas would include the Perkunia valley, but the Balticans never expanded past that central river. Eventually Baltica would issue an ultimatum to the then united Slavija, to give these majority Ras areas, as well as some extra territory in return for both access to Baltican ports on the amber lake, as well as exemption from trade tariffs. This was reluctantly accepted, but caused Slavija to split in two, a more Baltican influenced south, and a more rebellious North.

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(Flag of the Expansion and NPCS. In red are the capitals, ignore the one in Ahrana)

Southern NPC: Republic of Vokescha

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E:1

P:2

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(Flag of Vokescha)

Vokescha is the southern Slavijan state. It was formally what remained of the Kingdom of Slavija after the North (Ulgistan) split off, mainly due to the acceptance of the 1887 Ultimatum. When the North split off, Vokescha attempted to fight Ulgistan in order to reclaim it, but would fail in its endeavours. This would ultimately lead to the resignation of king Boris III and the establishment of the Republic of Vokescha in 1890. 

Vokescha is inhabited mainly by Ahranian Slavs, with small communities of Dolch and Ras. Its economy consists of metal refining, as well as construction material manufacturing. Due to its very hilly and sometimes mountainous geography it is unable to farm enough food to sustain itself, and relies on Baltica and Ulgistan to provide it with most of its food. Being a landlocked state it depends heavily on Baltican ports to export its goods. Unlike Ulgistan it has a very close relationship with Baltica, largely due to its economic reliance on Baltica. 

Its current population is 6.2 Million, with a GDP per capita of 12.4k. Its capital is the city of Prakovice, the historic capital of the Slavijan territory.

 

Northern NPC: Ulgistan (Renamed)  

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E:2

P:1

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(Flag of Ulgistan)

Ulgistan is the Northern Slavijan state. After the 1887 Ultimatum, many people in Ulgistan were angered by the surrender of so much Northern Land to Baltica, predominantly the Perkunia valley. This would lead to the Northern state rising up, believing that the southern Nobles no longer valued the North or its people. After a brief war (Which Ulgistan won) it would go on to proclaim itself as a Republic, being one of the first in central Argis. 

Ulgistan (Similarly to Vokescha) is primarily inhabited by Ahranian Slavs, with a sizable Ras population in its Western Territories. Its name is deprived from the Ulgistan river that makes up the nation's border with Baltica. Ulgistan continues to claim the Perkunia valley, despite it having little to no Ulgistanians in it. Its economy is mainly focused around aero engineering as well fertiliser manufacturing. 

Its current population is 3.6 Million, with a GDP per capita of 18.6K. Its capital is the city of Lurvingri.

 

As for Baltica, i think Baltica would grow by about 2 million from the historic land it got (Not counting the population lost in the civil war). As for the economy, to make it easier on myself i'll just say that the economy stays the same (since it would go down from the civil war anyways). I feel like this expansion is the best of both proposals, and still leaves me with the ability to RP the eventual integration of all of the Western Territories…

 

Ping for @Struma and @Ahrana for approval




 

As Iverica stated, we usually don't allow for pure historic expansions, so I would recommend you order your eastern Sanarija expansion as:
1- Historic annexation of eastern Slavija by Baltica.
2- It's subsequent loss of said land just before or at the start of the civil war.
3- Civil War pt.2 being the Federation's attempt to retake the lands.
Or in any other way that avoids a purely historic expansion.

Regarding your Ulgistan & Vokescha expansions, I have no issues with how you laid them out previously though when you eventually get to them (after east Sanarija is (re)annexed) a brief timeline of events on how you plan to integrate them would be appreciated.

Once you've provided a timeline for your eastern Sanarija expansion, and Ahrana and Struma have provided consent, I am happy to give this the full green light.

(For reference this post was being created as Ahrana gave their reply, I had no knowledge of their post when I wrote this one. Poor timing.)

Edited by Xio (see edit history)
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So alright let me clear up some of the confusion. This expansion is a modern one that will primarily take place after the formation of ALEC. The area that Baltica does get from this expansion (I.e eastern Slavija) would be regions that were inhabited by Ras or Dolch, which lead to the 1887 Ultimatum which saw this land transferred to Baltica in exchange for more economic concessions. This territory was mainly in the former Perkunia valley which used to be a part of Ulgistan and the Kingdom of Slavija. Now these territories would have Stayed Baltica during its first and second civil war, however Ulgistan and Vokescha would remain independent and separate from Baltica.

1 hour ago, Xio said:

 

As Iverica stated, we usually don't allow for pure historic expansions, so I would recommend you order your eastern Sanarija expansion as:
1- Historic annexation of eastern Slavija by Baltica.
2- It's subsequent loss of said land just before or at the start of the civil war.
3- Civil War pt.2 being the Federation's attempt to retake the lands.
Or in any other way that avoids a purely historic expansion.

Regarding your Ulgistan & Vokescha expansions, I have no issues with how you laid them out previously though when you eventually get to them (after east Sanarija is (re)annexed) a brief timeline of events on how you plan to integrate them would be appreciated.

Once you've provided a timeline for your eastern Sanarija expansion, and Ahrana and Struma have provided consent, I am happy to give this the full green light.

(For reference this post was being created as Ahrana gave their reply, I had no knowledge of their post when I wrote this one. Poor timing.)

As for a timeline of how integrating this regions would go, it will go like this.

 

-Baltica reforms into a Federation, after which it restores its diplomatic relations with Ulgistan and Vokescha.

-Baltica perseus greater relations with Vokescha, and agree to build a new railroad to connect it to the Baltican National Spine.

-Baltica also signs a trade deal with Vokescha, mainly to import a lot of steel and building materials to aid with its reconstruction. 

-Amber Lake Economic Community is set up in 2023, to help promote trade and cooperation between Central Argis States. The first three members would be Baltica, Vokescha and Estimeria. 

-More economic cooperation between Baltica and Vokescha, with baltica exporting foodstuff to Vokescha.

-In 2023, Baltica starts talks with the new regime in Ulgistan to finally fix former disagreements about the Perkunia Valley. The new Baltican and Ulgistan regimes sign a symbolic agreement recognising the ancient cultural importance of the Perkunia valley to Ulgistan and Ulgistan recognises that the territory is now rightfully Baltican. 

-A trade agreement is made between Baltica and Ulgistan, and Baltica begins to import fertilisers from Ulgistan to support its agricultural sector. 

-After some talks, Ulgistan agrees to join ALEC, becoming the fourth member to do so.


Thats the relative timeline I have in my head, im not sure if I will annex Ulgistan and Vokescha or have them simply be apart of ALEC, however I think both results are pretty realistic if Baltica begins to work on settling old ties and expanding its economy.

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As for the Eastern territories, this is a timeline of how they came into the hands of Baltica.

 

-The region of Slavija gets independence from Ahrana after a long and gruelling war that Baltica heavily supported. This territorty is organised into the Kingdom of Slavija and incorporates all territory that used to be between Baltica and Ahrana.

-The border regions of Slavija that bordered Baltica were home to a prominent Baltican community, many of whom inhabited the Perkunia Valley, an area in between the Ulgi River and the Hugo Mountain range. 

-As time goes on this area sees a population boom, and due to its proximity to Baltica only continues to see more Raskians move into it. The South on the meanhand becomes increasingly populated by Dolch, who mainly set up as merchants to exploit trade along the Visagris river.

-Eventually in the 1850s, many nobles begin pushing for the annexation of these regions from the Kingdom of Slavija as they are seen as ethnically and culturally part of Baltica. This sentiment is mainly pushed by the Ras, who wanted to unite with the Perkunia valley region. However, the movement was also becoming increasingly popular with the Dolch, who wanted to directly annex the territory of Hugostan in the south, which was beginning to build a decent Dolch population.

-Finally, in 1887, King Antanas II issues an ultimatum to Slavija, to give Baltica control of the region in exchange for more economic rights and port access. If the ultimatum was denied it would see Baltica stop all trade with Slavija which no doubt would have bankrupted the nation. The Kingdom of Slavija would reluctantly agree to give up the regions and so the Perkunia valley as well as Hugostan became official territories of the Kingdom of Baltica.

-After this ultimatum Slavija split into two, Ulgistan and Vokescha.

-Perkunia and Hugostan remain a part of Baltica after the first civil war. After the second civil war, they would still continue to remain a part of Baltica, mainly because the region benefited more by staying with Baltica (Especially Perkunia which was becoming increasingly more powerful with the rise of Raskia), whilst Hugostan would end up joining Dokestva and after the war it was too weak to rise up, due its small population.


 

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  • 2 weeks later...

After further addition with more information added I will give the green light for this Expansion on my end, however I do expect the RP that will follow from this thread to be a developed and quality RP given the amount of land that will be in these expansions.

Beyond my acceptance of this proposal, I will also head my approval to the Cartographer and his decisions @Xio so as long as he approves my approval stands.

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With both of your neighbours that would be directly affected by the expansion giving the green light, however as a final stipulation this expansion would need to be divided into at least two (preferably 3) of eastern Sanarija and western Sanarija, as they are quite distinct. This is standard practise as it's happened to many members before you (myself included before I rebooted my nation). Other then that you are free to begin your expansion :).

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Expan Re-Draft

After some consideration, I have decided to make my Semi-Historical expansion a purely modern one. This is mainly because its been very difficult for me to find a fun and compelling plot line to base this expansion on, and I think I could do something more interesting if this expansion were to be purely done in the current time. Essentially I plan for my Historic expansion to be split into two states (As previously had been planned), this being the Republic of Perkunia, and the Federation of Hugostan. Slowly, through the creation of ALEC (Amber Lake Economic Community) and increasing dependence on Baltica, these states will be incorporated as “Republics” within the Baltican Federation. Below is a description of these new Nations…

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(North is Perkunia, South is Hugostan)

Republic of Perkunia

The Republic of Perkunia is a state situated in between Baltica and Hugostan and mainly resides within the Perkunia Valley, a large flat plateau that is surrounded by multiple hills and mountains. Additionally, the large Balandeli River runs through the central half of the Republic, and its capital city of Maznas rests on said river. For most of its history, Perkuania acted as a battle ground for Baltica and Ahrana, but the mountains which form so much of the nation's borders acted as natural barriers to both sides preventing either from expanding. However, this helped make Perkunia a breeding ground for both Slavic and Gintaric folk, most of whom were either descendants of slaves, soldiers or refugees fleeing the persocution of Baltica or Ahrana. When the great Independence wars began, and the various Kingdoms and Princedoms of Central Argis, that had been once governed and ruled by Ahrana gained freedom, Perkunia did not form a Kingdom, but a Republic, one that flourished as a free neutral nation where people could flee to avoid persecution. 

Today, Perkunia boasts a large economy of 100 Billion Aukstai, and a Population of 6.7 Million. It remains one of the most democratic and free nations within Central Argis, and a common place for people of all ideologies and walks of life to meet. It often acts as a negotiation ground for many nations of Argis. 

 

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(Flag of Perkunia, the Blue represents the river that is the lifeblood of the nation, the white a color of unity and green for the fields and plains that make up the interior.)

 

Federation of Hugostan

The Federation of Hugostan is a nation south west of Baltica, and borders Transbaltia. It is a heavily mountainous land, with very few fields or plains. Historically, although it was a part of the Ahranian Empire, it was a barren region, in which few lived. Its hostile environment is what scared many away, and as such the area was poor and underdeveloped. This was the case until the arrival of Duke Hugo, who would build the nation's capital of Hugostad (Nowadays known as Gurvinburg), and helped spark a migration of exiled Dolch. These Dolch would flock to both Hugostan and eventually Estimeria, establishing their own miniature trade network, centered around the Visagris river, which flowed from the Hugostan mountains, the Baltican trade city of Visagris. When copper and other minerals were discovered in the area, it saw the region experience another population boom, one that helped to boost the state out of obscurity. However, the outbreak of the independence wars saw the region reluctantly gain independence. Although it wanted to remain a part of Ahrana and her mighty empire, it had no choice, because its neighbours threatened it with partition if it stuck with Ahrana. 

The nation's population remains low, with only 3.2 million people calling it home. Its economy is similarly small, consisting of 47 Billion Akmens. A large part of the Hugostan economy is still based on mineral exports, and most of its imports consist of Agricultural goods from neighboring Baltica and Perkunia…

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(Flag of Hugostan, Yellow from the Ahrana flag, Black for the minerals that make up the land and the White Star, symbolic of Hugostad, the capital of the territory)

Edited by Baltica
Flag change for Hugostan (see edit history)
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I'm good with this. I can add Hugostan and Perkunia onto the map as reserved territory if you plan to start your new expansion right away. Due to the location of the land I don't think re-pinging your neighbours would be necessary.

Hope you have fun on your expansion :).

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