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Expansion: Ateenia


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Greetings my fellow Sungardians, well Eurthians. I come here to request an expansion into the 6 islands you see on the picture for the securer future of the few locals.

The black dot is the capital of the jarldom, Hvalavík.

 

Jarldom of Nanubard

Nanuheim.jpg

This will be a historic expansion which will take place from 1697-1731, meaning that the first island was settled in 1697 and the last one in 1731 and they were originally whaling settlements to hunt whales, fox and seals and occasionally fight the local Nanuvats that nomadically travel to those islands during summer to fish and club some seals. from late 17th century to 19th century, many settlements formed and diminished as the prey population rose and fell.

Around 1887, first coal deposits were discovered which led to the formation of permanent towns which still exist today and led to these simple islands from becoming a Jarldom of Nanubard from the simple territorial administration that ruled over there earlier and a powerful and loyal Nanuvat family was brought to power to rule in the name of the Ateenian monarch as jarl. 

Today the known coal deposits are either depleted or too small for any real mining effort to be worth it.

I plan to keep most of the lore @Ivericahas built around those islands with the polar service RP and most certainly will keep the Polar Service operations in that 1 island around.

Population of the jarldom would be a total of 9,921 people with a gdp of $27,817 per capita, which would leave their total gdp of $275,972,457 that would be integrated to my stats upon finishing the expansion RP

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

The GDP of the islands seems very high, especially since the resources there are mentioned as being depleted.

What do you have to justify that?

They work as scientists, whale hunters and as personel on ice breaker ships aswell as simple port workers, well those are the main jobs there.

Primary export resources of the island currently are fur, whale meat, seal meat and fish.

Most of the GDP is remains of the wealth coal mining brought do the jarldom.

Also its a tourist spot, however tourism doesnt make up that big of a portion of the gdp.

Edited by Ateenia (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

I'm tagging @Magnus since the islands are closer to their coast than that of @Ateenia.

It'll be interesting to know what they think of it.

Honestly, I have to ask some questions out of curiosity and doubt because this is  considered as a fairly big affair that is happening.

I do admit, those islands look nice out there. I kinda wanted them, though @Ateenia expanded first and I cannot make a new enemy or some crazy war affair because of it. 
 

So first, can you write some more information on why you want the islands, and what are is Ateenia going to do with these? Since they are very close to Magnus, I would like to make sure it’s not a threat to us. Because technically you can design it as a secret intel island with all your agencies, and that may actually be a problem is we don’t know. Besides, we can plan a RP together if the circumstances allow. 
 

I just have a couple of questions regarding this because I’am considering some options and other stuff. Do note that this is not the meaning I disagree with your explain; it just means I need more information to make a informed decision. 

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17 minutes ago, Magnus said:

Honestly, I have to ask some questions out of curiosity and doubt because this is  considered as a fairly big affair that is happening.

I do admit, those islands look nice out there. I kinda wanted them, though @Ateenia expanded first and I cannot make a new enemy or some crazy war affair because of it. 
 

So first, can you write some more information on why you want the islands, and what are is Ateenia going to do with these? Since they are very close to Magnus, I would like to make sure it’s not a threat to us. Because technically you can design it as a secret intel island with all your agencies, and that may actually be a problem is we don’t know. Besides, we can plan a RP together if the circumstances allow. 
 

I just have a couple of questions regarding this because I’am considering some options and other stuff. Do note that this is not the meaning I disagree with your explain; it just means I need more information to make a informed decision. 

1st reason to expand there, its one of the few places i can expand to.

2nd reason, to have cool islands

3rd reason, with these, i can ensure shipping routes from Ateenia to rest of the wurld, will remain safe, no matter the diplomatic situation.

4th, man can use the lack of light pollution to stargaze in some research station or observatory or whatever.

As for you feeling threatened, Ateenia really doesnt have any reason to waste resources on focusing its military installations against Magnus when its on high tensions with Prymont and thus also sees TRIDENT as potential threat.

The focus may or may not change in future, depending on future events.

 

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Those islands are almost the only direction that is open to the both of you, bar just pushing south. Space is at a hell of a premium in that part of Argis.

Options may be to either come up with a joint history of the islands together or perhaps have them as a condominium. The former is logical, as they're very close to @Magnus but the latter is likely going to be dissatisfactory due to what @Ateenia has stated their intentions are.

Joint history would allow you to come up with shared lore, if you haven't already.

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@Ateenia fair enough. I don’t see anything wrong with your response, I was expecting 2-3 paragraphs on explanation but a simple list would work fine for now. 
I see lack of detail and planning in your expansion; the reason “the islands are cool” is not really a reason because by making a proposal to expand, your opening up new problems and potentially creating headaches for other nations and moderators. I’am not a mod myself, so enough with the personal opinion stuff.

For your last reason, I’am concerned. Originally, I thought this was only between you and me and the moderators who need to confirm this. But now, I could see your tensions with @Prymont and seeing TRIDENT as a threat. 
 

I need more explanation. Now more important then ever, I don’t feel pressured to take sides. That means I’am not approving or disapproving this until this is sorted out. I don’t wanna be dragged in to a conflict; put Magnus in trouble. 
 

@Tagmatium Rules I’am considering a lot of things. Please hold on because I need to see how this works out. Please be patient. 

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12 minutes ago, Magnus said:

@Ateenia fair enough. I don’t see anything wrong with your response, I was expecting 2-3 paragraphs on explanation but a simple list would work fine for now. 
I see lack of detail and planning in your expansion; the reason “the islands are cool” is not really a reason because by making a proposal to expand, your opening up new problems and potentially creating headaches for other nations and moderators. I’am not a mod myself, so enough with the personal opinion stuff.

For your last reason, I’am concerned. Originally, I thought this was only between you and me and the moderators who need to confirm this. But now, I could see your tensions with @Prymont and seeing TRIDENT as a threat. 
 

I need more explanation. Now more important then ever, I don’t feel pressured to take sides. That means I’am not approving or disapproving this until this is sorted out. I don’t wanna be dragged in to a conflict; put Magnus in trouble. 
 

@Tagmatium Rules I’am considering a lot of things. Please hold on because I need to see how this works out. Please be patient. 

Prymont tensions isnt the reason im expanding there, i mentioned it to assure you that any military installations that those islands might have, will be too busy looking for any potential TRIDENT warships heading towards Canamo, to waste resources observing Magnus.

And i dont see how Ateenia getting islands would drag Magnus into a conflict between Ateenia and Prymont.

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2 minutes ago, Ateenia said:

Prymont tensions isnt the reason im expanding there, i mentioned it to assure you that any military installations that those islands might have, will be too busy looking for any potential TRIDENT warships heading towards Canamo, to waste resources observing Magnus.

And i dont see how Ateenia getting islands would drag Magnus into a conflict between Ateenia and Prymont.

Yes, I get the point that the islands itself and the stuff on it poses no threat. But the problem is if I give you the islands, TRIDENT and/or Prymont may feel threatened that I’am giving you islands. Which drags me into the conflict. They denounce me for helping you because your there enemy, and I have to waste time arguing.

Since I’am a fairly new Roleplayer and I don’t have any allies, I would try to avoid it. 

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3 minutes ago, Ateenia said:

You consenting to expansion OOC most certainly isnt grounds to denounce someone IC.

IC decisions cannot be based off of OOC conversations.

 

True, but if I approve then you own the islands IC. The discussion itself is not IC, but the map and your location on the map is IC. @Tagmatium Rules let’s see what you think about the whole thing because I’am not sure.

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On 12/12/2021 at 1:25 PM, Ateenia said:

Population of the jarldom would be a total of 9,921 people with a gdp of $27,817 per capita, which would leave their total gdp of $275,972,457 that would be integrated to my stats upon finishing the expansion RP

Stats look good. Basically a rip of Svalbard and not in a bad way either. I'd say the biggest questions are one whether Magnus formally objects to this expansion OOC and Iverca's thoughts since he has lore with regard to Polar Service.

8 hours ago, Magnus said:

I do admit, those islands look nice out there. I kinda wanted them, though

While I don't mean to derail this by making this suggestion, I am honor bound to inform you that it is your right to object to his expansion and it would be certainly taken into consideration by staff. Though it would be encouraged that there is some compromise if we don't all see eye to eye.

7 hours ago, Magnus said:

TRIDENT and/or Prymont may feel threatened that I’am giving you islands

That's their problem. We are all adults and if they have something to say about it they are more than welcome to do so on this thread. Speak only for yourself in this regard.

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So just for my own understanding, this expansion will be to incorporate a (currently) independent Jarldom into @Ateenia correct?

On 12/12/2021 at 1:25 PM, Ateenia said:

Around 1887, first coal deposits were discovered which led to the formation of permanent towns which still exist today and led to these simple islands from becoming a Jarldom of Nanubard from the simple territorial administration that ruled over there earlier and a powerful and loyal Nanuvat family was brought to power to rule in the name of the Ateenian monarch as jarl. 

This seems to suggest that this group of islands is currently under the control of the Ateenian government? Or is this more of a "technically you are under us" but the reality is that Nanubard is independent in all things (as of right now). I think we need to establish what their status is to understand the nature of this expansion and what it means geopolitically for the local area.

I think it's extraordinarily important that both Ateenia and @Magnus agree on what these islands mean to both of them. The proximity of these islands to Magnus (them being literally geographically closer to the islands than Ateenia) must mean they've at least had dealings with the peoples on these islands in the past.

I'm leaning towards this being ok, but I want to see both parties agree on what the islands are and at least a little history behind it.

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11 minutes ago, Seylos said:

So just for my own understanding, this expansion will be to incorporate a (currently) independent Jarldom into @Ateenia correct?

This seems to suggest that this group of islands is currently under the control of the Ateenian government? Or is this more of a "technically you are under us" but the reality is that Nanubard is independent in all things (as of right now). I think we need to establish what their status is to understand the nature of this expansion and what it means geopolitically for the local area.

I think it's extraordinarily important that both Ateenia and @Magnus agree on what these islands mean to both of them. The proximity of these islands to Magnus (them being literally geographically closer to the islands than Ateenia) must mean they've at least had dealings with the peoples on these islands in the past.

I'm leaning towards this being ok, but I want to see both parties agree on what the islands are and at least a little history behind it.

Nah it would be part of Ateenia since the first settlers, it'll just be my 24th jarldom and be just like the other 23 jarldoms in government and legal stand point.

 

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Here’s the update:

(Sorry about the judging regarding the other problems that have no relevance with the expansion)

I declare, in my highest faith to oppose this expansion. While this has been a hard decision that I had to make, I believe it is one that is much needs and generally aligns with Eurth Roleplay itself. Please note these are my personal opinions; not necessarily yours.

First, I feel this Expansion was poorly planned. I mean the first post of the thread contained little information, more is better. For example, reasons that @Ateenia provided regarding the expansion include “the islands are cool” and “it’s one of the only places I can expand to”. They are borderline, if not completely lacking. Expansions should not be created out of boredom; or Blatant exercise of power without careful consideration of the complications and how it would affect the surrounding nations/environments. Even the smallest expansions can make big and lasting impacts to lore.

Second, the islands don’t event fit Ateenia that much. As all of us know, the islands are geographically closer to Magnus. The islands are far right of Ateenia, they would have to travel quite far to reach their territory. That is negative because the territories of a nation would have to stay fairly close to each other to make it a “actual nation”. 
 

Finally, it would impact me. As @Seylos mentioned, Magnus had historical interactions with the people there. Although Magnus has no claims that the island is there’s, it has a large influence of the island. Many Magnums travel there for vacation. With Ateenia possibly owning the island, I would have to RP the impacts. For example, my citizens and the natives may be under new laws and regulations that are part of Ateenia. Since the natives are not of our control, they can possible dislike Ateenia and rebel. It’s just some of the impacts of this expansion. Honestly, the negative and extreme impacts are just too much. I would prefer it if we just leave the islands as it is, preserve it. 
 

With a lighter closing note, I would like to state that this objection isn’t based on my feelings on Ateenia, I just feel that this and only this expansion for now does not fit our interests. It’s still up to the staff. I’am only including my own feelings on this. 
 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Magnus said:

I declare, in my highest faith to oppose this expansion. While this has been a hard decision that I had to make, I believe it is one that is much needs and generally aligns with Eurth Roleplay itself. Please note these are my personal opinions; not necessarily yours.

This seems like a rush to judgment. I would caution you from doing such and consider keeping a more open mind by further engaging in dialogue. If in the end of it all the conclusion is the same, then it is understandable. I urge you to gather more information and trust the process before quickly shutting this door.

10 hours ago, Magnus said:

First, I feel this Expansion was poorly planned. I mean the first post of the thread contained little information, more is better. For example, reasons that @Ateenia provided regarding the expansion include “the islands are cool” and “it’s one of the only places I can expand to”. They are borderline, if not completely lacking.

If they are lacking, ask more questions. If this is a foundation of your objection, then your objection whilst legal is a rather poorly founded one. Eurth thrives by having friendly, open communication and keeping an open mind. Unless from the get go you didn't want this expansion to take place, this approach should be the one taken.

10 hours ago, Magnus said:

Expansions should not be created out of boredom;

We are here to have fun. To not be bored. I would advise you to refrain from making such statements.

10 hours ago, Magnus said:

the islands don’t event fit Ateenia that much. As all of us know, the islands are geographically closer to Magnus. The islands are far right of Ateenia, they would have to travel quite far to reach their territory. That is negative because the territories of a nation would have to stay fairly close to each other to make it a “actual nation”. 

On a flat map, sure. However, remember, this is a representation of a spherical planet and being that you both are at the pole there, "far right" isn't really far. While they are closer to you regardless, to say they aren't that close to Ateenia is kind of misleading and shows a misunderstanding of how cartography works. Not to mention, there are plenty of examples, especially of Nordic countries IRL, having far off ownership of islands and constitute it as a real nation. Statements like this lead me to believe to my initial observation: This seems like a rush to judgment founded poorly.

10 hours ago, Magnus said:

Finally, it would impact me. As @Seylos mentioned, Magnus had historical interactions with the people there. Although Magnus has no claims that the island is there’s, it has a large influence of the island. Many Magnums travel there for vacation. With Ateenia possibly owning the island, I would have to RP the impacts. For example, my citizens and the natives may be under new laws and regulations that are part of Ateenia. Since the natives are not of our control, they can possible dislike Ateenia and rebel. It’s just some of the impacts of this expansion. Honestly, the negative and extreme impacts are just too much. I would prefer it if we just leave the islands as it is, preserve it. 

This is something that could be worked in a compromise which I urge you both to consider as opposed to shutting this down outright. Obviously, both have ideas of how those islands interacted within your lore so regardless of expansion or not that is a discussion that has to take place as neighbors. Neither you nor Ateenia can take full ownership over its lore and a lack of collaboration and discussion will not get you far here. Additionally, there are others you would need to potentially consult on the matter of lore if I am not mistaken given previous RP actions ( @Iverica I believe ).

All that said, if nothing else, consider that RPing the negative effects is not necessarily a bad thing, either. This is a place for telling an interesting story, not to win and prevent harm every time.  It is upon Ateenia, if it were granted to him, to RP resistance and negative effects as well which is something I think we aren't accounting for. Statements like this lead me to believe to my initial observation: This seems like a rush to judgment founded poorly.

10 hours ago, Magnus said:

With a lighter closing note, I would like to state that this objection isn’t based on my feelings on Ateenia, I just feel that this and only this expansion for now does not fit our interests. It’s still up to the staff. I’am only including my own feelings on this. 

Aside from the above, are there any OOC reasons or plans you have with these islands? Are there any personal wishes you have for these islands? Consider, if you do, that you are likely not able not alone in determining that.

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6 hours ago, Oyus said:

This seems like a rush to judgment. I would caution you from doing such and consider keeping a more open mind by further engaging in dialogue. If in the end of it all the conclusion is the same, then it is understandable. I urge you to gather more information and trust the process before quickly shutting this door.

If they are lacking, ask more questions. If this is a foundation of your objection, then your objection whilst legal is a rather poorly founded one. Eurth thrives by having friendly, open communication and keeping an open mind. Unless from the get go you didn't want this expansion to take place, this approach should be the one taken.

We are here to have fun. To not be bored. I would advise you to refrain from making such statements.

On a flat map, sure. However, remember, this is a representation of a spherical planet and being that you both are at the pole there, "far right" isn't really far. While they are closer to you regardless, to say they aren't that close to Ateenia is kind of misleading and shows a misunderstanding of how cartography works. Not to mention, there are plenty of examples, especially of Nordic countries IRL, having far off ownership of islands and constitute it as a real nation. Statements like this lead me to believe to my initial observation: This seems like a rush to judgment founded poorly.

This is something that could be worked in a compromise which I urge you both to consider as opposed to shutting this down outright. Obviously, both have ideas of how those islands interacted within your lore so regardless of expansion or not that is a discussion that has to take place as neighbors. Neither you nor Ateenia can take full ownership over its lore and a lack of collaboration and discussion will not get you far here. Additionally, there are others you would need to potentially consult on the matter of lore if I am not mistaken given previous RP actions ( @Iverica I believe ).

All that said, if nothing else, consider that RPing the negative effects is not necessarily a bad thing, either. This is a place for telling an interesting story, not to win and prevent harm every time.  It is upon Ateenia, if it were granted to him, to RP resistance and negative effects as well which is something I think we aren't accounting for. Statements like this lead me to believe to my initial observation: This seems like a rush to judgment founded poorly.

Aside from the above, are there any OOC reasons or plans you have with these islands? Are there any personal wishes you have for these islands? Consider, if you do, that you are likely not able not alone in determining that.

Thanks for the response. It does greatly matter.

I’am not completely shutting the door, I’ve just declared I’am not supporting it at least. Sorry for the rushed decision. 
 

As another thought of it, RPing the negative impacts may be interesting. I’am gonna wait a moment and see how this expansion plays out and if the moderators approve it.

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4 hours ago, Magnus said:

Thanks for the response. It does greatly matter.

I’am not completely shutting the door, I’ve just declared I’am not supporting it at least. Sorry for the rushed decision. 
 

As another thought of it, RPing the negative impacts may be interesting. I’am gonna wait a moment and see how this expansion plays out and if the moderators approve it.

10 hours ago, Oyus said:

are there any OOC reasons or plans you have with these islands? Are there any personal wishes you have for these islands?

Do ponder an answer to the above question. Additionally, do consider that just as you have the right to object to Ateenia's expansion, he, as a close active neighbor can do the same including with those islands. Collaboration is key.

image.png

 

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3 hours ago, Oyus said:

Do ponder an answer to the above question. Additionally, do consider that just as you have the right to object to Ateenia's expansion, he, as a close active neighbor can do the same including with those islands. Collaboration is key.

image.png

 

I do have some plans for RP the visit of my nation to the island. I do have no plans to expand there. 
 

In that case, we could own the islands together and find some shared history. I’ll be glad to improvise if @Ateenia is willing to do the same and try to find common ground on the management of the island (resource use, research etc.)

 

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41 minutes ago, Magnus said:

I do have some plans for RP the visit of my nation to the island. I do have no plans to expand there. 
 

In that case, we could own the islands together and find some shared history. I’ll be glad to improvise if @Ateenia is willing to do the same and try to find common ground on the management of the island (resource use, research etc.)

 

My plans with the islands require the islands to be part of Ateenia, not be international territory.

I can however let you set up a science station on one of the islands which your scientists could travel to and from and work in, VISA free.

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4 hours ago, Magnus said:

I do have some plans for RP the visit of my nation to the island. I do have no plans to expand there. 
 

In that case, we could own the islands together and find some shared history. I’ll be glad to improvise if @Ateenia is willing to do the same and try to find common ground on the management of the island (resource use, research etc.)

 

3 hours ago, Ateenia said:

My plans with the islands require the islands to be part of Ateenia, not be international territory.

I can however let you set up a science station on one of the islands which your scientists could travel to and from and work in, VISA free.

This is all fine and well. I suggest you all discuss what you wish to do with the isles lore. Bear in mind that you will likely both have to compromise. I suggest setting up a separate OOC thread.

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On 12/15/2021 at 8:26 PM, Oyus said:

This is all fine and well. I suggest you all discuss what you wish to do with the isles lore. Bear in mind that you will likely both have to compromise. I suggest setting up a separate OOC thread.

While I was wishing that the islands was to be shared, I’ll try to compromise and allow @Ateenia to have the islands. I’ll set up an separate OOC thread or PM with @Ateenia after the holidays (I won’t have the time to log in and type the thing out) if that’s fine.

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Okay, I think its about time I enter the ring after reading this entire clusterf**k of a debate. Though I'll make my conclusion clear now: With some extra wurldbuilding work on Ateenia's end, @Ateenia should be allowed this expansion despite Magnus' distaste for it.

This largely comes from @Magnus's appeared inability (or unwillingness) to separate OOC and IC discussion when it comes down to his reasons why. By allowing Ateenia to expand here (historically in 1600s to 1700s) you are not giving up anything politically in-universe. TRIDENT won't see you or Prymont anymore or any less of a threat and most certainly Ateenia CANNOT go against his reasons for the initial expansion without consulting staff, if his expansion is about incorporating these islands to secure historic shipping lanes but then his actual written expansion is about political tension with Prymont, his expansion would be voided as a breach of trust with the staff. Once Ateenia owns the islands officially he may start a new modern day RP thread about whatever on the actual islands, but it will be - as stated- modern day. As in, Magnus the nation can actively object and protest and gather allies and friends to push back against Ateenia.

Eurth is not a competition for whoever gets the biggest borders or who can politically subjugate their neighbours: Its a roleplaying game based around cooperation OOC to allow for cooperation and conflict In-Universe. There is no reason to be 'suspicious' of Ateenia because Ateenia LITERALLY CANNOT DO ANYTHING without telling others, NO ONE CAN. We can all read each other's threads and if Ateenia doesn't want to become a social outcast of Eurth and its community he damn well knows not to be coy with his plans. Even myself with my own ""secret"" plans for my nation (or event nations I share with others) I share with people involved (such as Stedoria and Seylos regarding the Sentist State) or make obvious hints, and I would hope Ateenia would do the same.

Also regarding this: 

Quote

Finally, it would impact me. As @Seylos mentioned, Magnus had historical interactions with the people there. Although Magnus has no claims that the island is there’s, it has a large influence of the island. Many Magnums travel there for vacation. With Ateenia possibly owning the island, I would have to RP the impacts. For example, my citizens and the natives may be under new laws and regulations that are part of Ateenia. Since the natives are not of our control, they can possible dislike Ateenia and rebel. It’s just some of the impacts of this expansion. Honestly, the negative and extreme impacts are just too much. I would prefer it if we just leave the islands as it is, preserve it. 

Magnus if you could provide a link from the forum where this is written down and made canon I would very much appreciate it. If this isn't on the forum it will be discarded.


Now the actual expansion itself:
The stats look fine, basically just Svalbard, though I would like you to write a more in-depth piece on these islands such as their history and economy, and the rough details on how you plan to perform this expansion so we (the staff) can have a more accurate view of your idea of these islands to give a fair assessment once you've completed the expansion.

Edited by Metztlitlaca (see edit history)
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