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V5 Map - Europa Discussion


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This discussion will involve all the (recently) active players on the continent of Europa. For this reason I am tagging (in alphabetical order): @Cristina, @Haruspex, @Ide Jima@Miiros, and @Tagmatium Rules. And a courtesy wink at @Suverina because I think you still lurk. (Miss you old friend.)

 

Phase 1: Europa right now

In this first phase I will attempt to explain what the continent of Europa looks like and how it got there. This is my point of view and I welcome corrections from the members tagged above. No worries though: the non-Europans get to join the conversation in phase 2.

There are +50 countries marked as part of Europa on our countries list over one IIWiki. That's a lot of places, with a lot of diversity and history and lore. With the Renaissance project that started a few years back, most of the available factbook information was collected from various sources. But not enough to figure out everything that we needed to know to move forward. Gaping plot-holes remained after that first pass. For example: collective history, precursors, cultural ties, migrations, etc.

During a second pass and after discussion with Tagmatium I moved in the direction of creating subcontinents. Although these subcontinents may seem new, the idea behind it was created in February 2008 by @Adaptus. There are 5 subcontinents to Europa going clockwise: Burania (north), Orient (east), Azania (southwest), Occident (west), and Amutia (central).

tI8jrN4m.png P9Zz0Bhm.png

(Left: regions by Adaptus. Right: tweaked version that follows geography.)

Borders remain relatively the same except a few changes here and there to fit geography and climate. On a map you can consider the general borders to look like this. Each of these continents has its own cultural identity and also historical influences from neighbouring cultures. Countries that didn't fit in were already moved to better locations, for example: Mongol-Swedes was moved from the desert to the steppe. 

 KwOScKcm.png 7tRVYkjm.jpg

(Left: cultures and their influence. Right: same but with biomes.)

  • Azania (green). This is !Africa and the !Middle East combined. But we call it Zongla and Memopotamia (TBD). These are the people who reach the New Wurld first via Marenesia. They also come up with the Religions of the Book, if you take Bashan into consideration.
  • Amutia (white). Our big desert that's difficult to cross. This is the big melting pot in the middle. Everyone wants a piece of it. During the centuries it continued to switch sides. But the large desert makes it difficult to hold. Perfect for people fleeing from authority.
  • Occident (red). Tied into the history of the Alexandrian and Aroman Empire. The notable cultural outliers are Haruspex and Anglia. These can be considered outliers which never fully assimilated due to their extreme location in the mountains or on the sea.
  • Orient (yellow). A whole lot of !Asia-India-Pacific minus the northern steppe. Frequent raids from Burania either by land (see Mirian Republic and Youtabonia) or sea (see Wendland). Little direct contact with the Occident. Nothing but vast empty ocean to the east and south.
  • Burania (blue). An interesting mix. This is includes the steppe cultures (!Mongols) plus the coastal peoples (!Vikings). In the past they could really shake things up from time to time. For example: horse raids into the Orient or ship raids into Vanarambaion. The biggest country is Volsci which I sometimes compare to mega !Finland if it owned both !Russia and !Canada.

During a third pass I began filling empty places with more old countries that fit into this mould of subcontinents. For example: our ancient founder was placed in Azania as "Yuropa", a reference to Ethiopia. Some other countries were renamed to a name that worked better. For example: @Phil VII became "Philippia", and @Paranoid schizo became "Baranchia" (TBD). Lastly, NPC's were created that helped create some more realism. Almost none of these NPC's have their lore fleshed out. So there's some untapped potential here.

Questions:

  • How do you view Europa and its various regions?
  • How do you see your own country within this framework?
  • Which problems and/or opportunities do you see coming from the above interpretation?

 

Phase 2: discuss which changes need to be made

Spoiler

Once the above is finished, I propose that we discuss which changes need to be made. Because this phase is more creative I think it's a good moment to invite other, non-Europan community members to share their perspective and advice.

Some example questions that need an answer.

  • Which essential parts of lore are we still missing? What should be added, why and how? How can we complete this? Can existing lore be used elsewhere? Who will take responsability for doing this?
  • What can be removed? What should be removed? What should not be removed?

 

Phase 3: going forward

Spoiler

When the above is finished, we'll have patched and settled the Europan lore. This included broad community participation.

Questions for this phase.

  • How an we make Europa more interactive with the rest of Eurth?
  • In which cases can Europa be unlocked? (proposed by @Metztlitlaca)
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A friendly poke for the Europans out there. I know this is a complex discussion. So it does make sense to take our time. I just wanted to check and hear who is or isn't interested in participating in the discussion.

This evening I took the mega-cultural zones and tried to add more details. Some countries are similar or related, sharing a history or language or ethnic makup. And drawing that is easier to understand than writing a whole book about it.

CxnbRmql.png

(Possible subcultural groups of Europa.)

This obviously needs discussion because the chance I got everyone's interpretation just right is nonexistent.

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I've no especial issues with it, other than the islands to my northeast would be Aroman in the main, due to assimilation and historic ethnic cleansing.

This is detailed in my first expansion thread, which is still on going but stalled. I plan to continue it.

See here.

The thing I'd would ask to happen is to finally clarify the Sporsia/Euandria/Qubdi border.

See the image attached below.

I've mentioned it on Discord a few times and used the attached image before and it's been partially implemented. The Euandrian border is a bit crap and should be tweaked to be a bit more natural.

I've sketched out some of Sporsia's history (although it maybe goes back too far, to the Palaeolithic), although it needs to be changed a bit due to more recent changes in the shared lore. It also explains Euandria and where it sits in relation to both Sporsia and Tagmatium.

Here is a link to the Google Doc that deals with the history, as well as the more modern political situation. Again, the history needs revision.

Qubdi-1.png

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Hello everyone! Europans especially included.

First I want to thank Orioni for starting the thread and has been really great with helping me with tasks and ideas. I should also say I’m sorry if I step on any toes with this proposal, but I felt as though I should get everything out there first before we start shooting down ideas and elevating others. Lastly not everyone involved in this post will be pinged, and will only be pinged if an idea begins to gain traction.

 

Phase 2.1 – Europa Cultural Overview
After the most recent culture map, designed initially by @Seylos but then subsequently modified by myself and @Orioni, Europa’s cultural centres have been more properly defined as well. Below is a map of Europa after the recent culture changes – simplified.

Europa_Cultures.png

 

Blue is European, primarily Greco-Romance cultures, but Germanic states exist along Europa’s northern coastline. These states having ties to the northern German states of Argis. We will be returning to the Europeans when discussing Phase 2.2 and Phase 2.4.

Green is Sahel and Subsaharan Africans. Due to their tight connections with the ex-Ahroman states and continental trade as a whole, I would imagine their level of technological development is not far behind that of the rest of Europa (but that’s just my opinion).

Orange/Brown are the Northwest Semites which are the Ammonites, Aramaic, Moabites, Edomites, Phoenicians and Punics, and the original Jewish people. The Northwest Semites broke away from the rest of the Semite groups in the real wurld around the time of the Middle East Late Bronze Age, so around 3200 years ago. We will return to the NW Semites for Phase 2.2.

Yellow, Red, and Purple are the Turkic, East Asians, and Indians. These will also be brought up in Lore Continuity along with Orioni’s conculture (pink).

Lastly are the grey areas, where a culture has yet to be defined. These will also be brought back up when we reach Connections to the Rest of Eurth (phase 2.4).

 

Phase 2.2 – Lore Continuity.

It isn’t controversial to say that until recently Europa and the rest of Eurth worked off entirely different systems of lore due to Europa being off limits to any new nations. This multiyear long forced separation of the continents has led to numerous issues of lore continuity and especially so when discussing cultures which we’ve had to patch up using band-aid, convoluted, solutions of numerous large-scale migrations back and forth between the New Wurld and Europa. Here is a list of some of them:

1. The original Proto-Azanian Ice Age migration. 50Kya.
2. The original Germanic, Celtic and Slavic Proto-Indo-European migrations to Argis. ??Kya
3. The East Asian migration from the Occident to Alharu, then cross a desert larger than the Sahara. Or the other way around as East Asians came from the migrated Proto-Azanians.
4. The Semitic migration from Alharu to Europa. Or the other way around, no one knows!
5. The Europan Dravidian colonisation of the New Wurld
6. The Europan Germanic colonisation of the New Wurld (Mainly Anglia)
7. The Europan Romance colonisation of the New Wurld (both from Europa to Argis and Argis to Alharu/Aurelia)
8. The Argis Germanic colonisation of the New Wurld

We’ve had to, at minimum, justify 8 large scale migrations to and from the New Wurld and Europa. Now you may say “well some of those happened at the same time and shouldn’t be counted separately”. The only two that we know of that actually happened somewhat at the same time is colonisation/migration 7 and colonisation/migration 8.

The issue is as Europa was closed off a new continent was required to act as “New Europa”, which was Argis. And as Europa’s Orient was closed off, a “New Orient” was required, which is currently split between eastern and western Alharu. And as Europa’s original Arab/Semitic region (Memopotamia) was closed off, Eurth needed a “New Memopotamia”, which became northern Alharu. As such the rest of Eurth had to play the part Europa was meant to but could not, because the higher ups in staff wished to keep Europa off-limits. But that’s in the past and now we need to figure out solutions to this problem.
 

Phase 2.3 – Fixing the Lore
There are several solutions to fixing the lore, however they involve sacrifices to be made on both sides (New Wurld and Europa).

Solution 1 – We ignore it.
This has been our main ‘solution’ for the past couple years, but it has only led to a convoluted lore that is difficult to discuss and has put many people off about talking about Eurth’s more ancient history due to its unnecessary complexity and unknown dates. It has also begun to unravel as those in the Discord could attest as newer members have begun to pick apart some of our band-aids either through direct questions or by creating more and more ethnically diverse nations. Some members also choose to just ignore Europa outright and create lore that directly contradicts its existence, but as very few members in Europa are still active nothing is done to prevent this from happening. A stable and non-contradictory lore would also help newer members who are often confused and put off by the Europa-Eurth relationship, which makes Eurth appear to be a group clinging onto the past (although this concern has become a non-serious issue in recent months due to the wonderful work of Seylos and the efforts of those still remaining in Europa).

To me this isn’t a solution but just kicking the can further down the road.

Solution 2 – Purge/Migrate the New Wurld to Europa
This is a very radical plan and I am sure wouldn’t get through. But nonetheless it has to be mentioned as a solution. And that's to move the Far East Asians of Alharu to Europa’s Orient and Equatorial islands. This would be a massive migration of states ranging from Esonice and Andalla (though these could remain as is under this solution) to Fulgistan and Indostan to Kertosono and Rhava. Of course getting everyone’s consent to do this would be nigh-impossible and would almost certainly force the Orient to be available for new members as well as almost altering the geography and climate to account for all of them and would also break other non-Far East Asian nations’ lore (like my own). Not to mention the movement of the Semitic and Afroasiatic countries to Europa ranging from Sayf to Cashar.

But it is a solution and one that would fix a lot of issues.

Solution 3 – Purge/Migrate Europa to the New Wurld
This is probably the most realistic proposal but still wildly controversial, and that's to move Europan NPCs to the New Wurld. Move countries like Ide Jima and San Ba and Tamurin to East and West Alharu, and countries like Mongol-Swedes (under a new name, please) to the Paran. The biggest issue I could see with this is breaking Europa’s ancient lore and gaining permission from @Gallambria to move Bashan to northern Alharu and moving Orioni’s island to the Adlantic. This would have a similar end as Europa minus forcing much of Europa to open up to new members and also fixing the Proto-Azania migration lore, which at the current moment only acts as an inconsistent blanket solution. But it would leave much of Europa bare and empty for either new members (unlikely) or to be filled with space filling NPCs.

Both of these solutions (2 & 3) would massively change the face of Eurth and although we will have certainly fixed the big picture lore, even more cracks would be produced that would take at least several months to fix.

Solution 4 – Shuffle Europa
This is a mix of the above 3 solutions and that's to shuffle Europa around so that the cultures are closer to their New Wurld counterparts. eg. we move the Romance nations in tropical south Europa to Burania, move the East Asians to Azania and southern Amutia and Southern Orient, carve out a new area for Subsaharan Africans, etc. This would still have a huge impact on lore but it would keep everyone on the same continent (mostly).

Solution 5 – We push Europa somewhere else
In the eternal words of Patrick Star: we should take Europa and push it somewhere else!. This solution is a bit more light hearted and would require redoing climate and geographic maps, and it’s moving Europa eastward so that it’s much closer to the New Wurld’s western coastline. The geography is then shifted in both continents so that the exchange of cultures is far easier between the continents, so that cultures across central and eastern Europa and central and western Alharu can have very similar cultures. This is ignoring the massive ramifications this would have in history, and would require moving and mangling Marenesia to allow for southern hemisphere cultural exchange to remain feasible. However the number of large migrations and colonisation events would remain the same, although the closeness of the continents would mean that they would be a lot more realistic – effectively Eurth would become a fractured supercontinent rather then 5 distinct (habitable) continents. This idea was originally made by Seylos, but instead it was shrinking the Adlantic instead of the Thalassa Ocean.

Solution 6 – I don’t have one
No seriously, I don’t. The reason why my post has taken this lost (besides being tied up in other projects) is that I can’t think of a non Lore-intrusive permanent fix to Eurth’s lore issues. If anyone else has possible solutions please reply to this thread with said solutions, even if they only partly fix the problem (such as rewriting ancient history to more seamlessly connect migratory groups).
 

Phase 2.4 – Connections to the Rest of Eurth
Assuming we go for Solution 1 in Phase 2.3, currently the main connections Europa has with Eurth are
1) Romance Nations of Amutia and the Orient being colonisers of the New Wurld
2) Tagmatium and Haruspex with the rest of the Adlantic
3) The ignored relationship between the Orient and the Far East Asian nations of Alharu
4) Orioni and EOS
5) The ancient history of northern Europa and northern Argis.

2/4/5 are doing well and pose no issues in the long term (except critic of EOS’ NPC to Member ratio). Connection 3 has been discussed already in Phases 2.2 and 2.3. All that's left is Connection 1.

Connection 1 was an issue in the past, however it has been partly mitigated by Aurelia’s change of lore. The main issue currently is that the !French are meant to be major to minor colonists and yet they are near-landlocked with all of their ocean access controlled by far larger powers and that @Iverica has had to hold the brunt of the Spanish influence in the New Wurld despite not being only Spanish but also Celtic. Below is a full map of Southern Europa.
 

South_Europa_Cultures.png

Yellow is Spanish or Spanish-like from what I could gleam from their IIwikis. Green is Portugese, Deep Blue is French, Brown is Italian, and Light Blue / Cyan is Germanic or Germanic-like. Turquoise is Byzantium Nova, a state similar to Adaptus. Below is a proposal I have to allow for maximum open ocean coast for the Portguese, Spanish, Italian, and French groups.

 

unknown.png

This of course can be done in many ways and I hope to see other people’s proposals. Lysia (highlighted by the red line) would be moved south to a large oceanic state with many islands facing westward. A new !Spanish nation would be created within the green borders which use to control the southern four !Hispanic islands as part of an empire, that or all of the !Hispanic regions were under a large empire. It would be up to the current Hispanic countries such as Mauridiviah and San Castellino if they wish to use a more faithfully !Spanish nation as their new coloniser, or stick with Iverica.

The !Portugese nation of Pirilao would remain as it already has good open ocean access and the !Italian Cristina and Mantella remain as is but new options for Italian states will be opened up, so Cristina doesn’t have to have a large empire if they do not wish to. It would also mean separate Italian cultures and accents could have their own states (same goes for the French and Spanish nations).

Lastly are the three question marked states. Those could either be !Italian or !French or extensions of the Afroasiatics or Greco-Roman. It would be up to the Europans to decide. This of course is just a proposal and the only real issue is Lysia’s lack of true open ocean access and the odd amount of Germanic nations down south.

 

Phase 3.1 – Future of Europa
From late 2020 to now (mid 2021) Europa has been making good strides towards connecting itself with the rest of Eurth, however there is still the issue of integrating Europa fully into the greater Eurth lore. The main issues currently are redoing many of the current NPCs to fit their new cultures and finding out more ways for Europa to interact with Eurth.

 

Phase 3.2 – Azania and the African Problem

Currently on Eurth, the only place where Subsaharan and Sahelian Africans exist are the Khoisan of the Aurelian Wastes and everyone else in Eurth Azania. Thus far we have only had three nations ask to be Subsaharan African since the introduction of the New Wurld. The issue is that the two most recent ones have nearly been back-to-back, and with many of the new members choosing groups we’ve yet to have true representation for, it’s time to find a good solution for the African Problem.

Currently much of Azania needs to be renamed and redone to match their new ethnic groups, and I believe that this is the best time to have Azania opened up to newer members to replace some of the NPCs in Azania. This would bring new blood and activity to Europa and mean we will not have to awkwardly co-opt Subsharan Africans in tropical Alharu and Aurelia, which are already being used as dumping grounds for cultures that should have gone in Europa. Very few people choose Subsaharan African nations, so the likelihood of major Azanian states being in danger of replacement are very slim.

 

Phase 3.3 – Colonist Match Making

One way to have people interact more with Europa, historically, is to compile a list in either a google doc, pinned in the forum, IIwiki, etc. of all potential colonial empires of Eurth and their spheres of influence throughout history and a glimpse into their cultures, languages, history, etc. Below is an example of such a table.

This would provide members new and old a neat orderly list of all nations that would’ve affected the New Wurld in the past and most likely have a stake in the present and/or future. It would encourage new members to pick colonists from Europa instead of everyone just going for Argis or Cristina. And if that NPC’s culture has something written about it, incorporate them into their lore.

This list could be accomplished by having the nation’s name, map of possible spheres of influence, short extract on their history and culture, then a link to their IIwiki page. We can then encourage people who pick them as their colonists to aid in expanding their wiki page(s).

unknown.png

 

Phase 3.4 – Orphan Nation Adoption
Although Phase 3.3 semi-fixes historic interactions, members are discouraged from interacting with Europan countries in the modern day due to their museumesque status of “no-touchy”. An idea I had was the possibility that long standing, high quality members can apply to adopt a nation in Europa. The process to do so would be similar to applying for an expansion although a lot more stringent and with higher expectations of non-bias secondary RPing.

This gives older members a chance to play and wurldbuild a ““new”” nation on the side with ideas that they’d like to explore but wouldn’t make sense for their country or would ruin their current plans. Allowing older and experienced members to be able to explore a new country also prevents burn out with their current nation as they won’t be forced to work on the same single project for years at a time, and gives them more excuses to RP with nations they wouldn’t otherwise have any reason to RP with. An issue might be that the new nation ends up taking all their attention, but that can be solved with it’s own inactive days until termination/revoking countdown. An adopted nation could also be officially dropped by the member working on it if they so choose, allowing another individual to pick up from where they left off.

 

Conclusion
I don’t really have one except I should once again apologise if I’ve stepped on any toes with these proposals and phases, and that I’m not looking to topple and destroy what Europa has had for years, only try to find the best ways to bring Europa into the community more and make it a true part of Eurth – not some distant land people only give lip service to outside of the active members and the Anglia event.

Edited by Metztlitlaca (see edit history)
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I'll start with 2.4 as that directly concerns Iverica and the Iberic diaspora. I'm also aware that what others like Orioni would have to say about the proposal would be considered before anything I put forward.

 

I don't have any problems with the proposed alternative map, except possibly having the Hispanic-yellow be closer to the center (to include one of the brown-italian territories). Any positioning that puts the yellow side in a more accessible position to Arome while still retaining its coastal position would be good. The reason for this is that the Iberic territories are supposed to be a march territory of Arome though with rather strong Aroman cultural influence. This isn't really a big issue but it would fit in with the current idea of the Iberic Empire if it were so.

Regarding the issue of colonisation in the New Wurld and fidelity, I don't think there's much of an issue for members who want to be closer to IRL Hispanic culture. I've written the Iberic Empire to be similar enough to a confederation of IRL Iberic kingdoms such that anyone who wants to be Castillian-speaking can do so without the touch of Iberic-Narvic creole culture. Bear in mind that my weird mixing happens after the diaspora event, so there's some more fidelity to irl Iberic cultures before this.

This usually happens in two ways:

  1. New members can just opt to be a splinter group of the Gran Viatge containing mostly (or completely) Stillian (Castillian) people.
  2. New members can choose to be part of colonial efforts undertaken mostly by Stillians who dislike being ruled by the mixed-culture majority or chose (for whatever reason) to migrate as a clan/group/faction to Iberic colonies- this is loosely what San Castellino, Beleareas (RIP), Mauridiviah, and Sefesia (going on the last discussion with @Oyus) have chosen.

Anyone wishing to is free to chose or add their own things to the diaspora community, the only concrete starting point being the Iberic Empire's timeline (minor revisions incoming there). I really don't go around plugging Iberic colonisation but I'm pretty happy if someone comes along and wants to add their own thing to the party! I've intentionally shirked giving too much detail to the Iberic Empire so others are more free to lorebuild without hassle.

Hopefully this addresses the points about colonisation and placement. 

 

---

 

TLDR: I don't have an issue with 2.4, I'd be happy to talk more about this if it gets pushed forward. About colonisation and fidelity to hispanic IRL stuff: I don't aspire to be the El Colonizador Grande, but I don't mind if people just want to join. There are also scenarios in place for members who just want to be closer to the IRL Hispanic culture.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well it has certainly been a while.

Phase 2.3 Revisit – Fixing the Lore
This was mostly discussed on the Discord, and the two main options people preferred were Solution 4 (Shuffle Europa’s ethnic groups) and Solution 5 (We move Europa closer to the other continents). @Orioni forbade Solution 5 which just leaves us with Solution 4. For the past 16 days I have been working on 22 nation proposals, changing their names, lore, flags, etc. to match their new cultures, regional lores, and the greater Eurth lore. Below is a map of Europa’s nations.

ft6lngt.png

Purple represents countries I cannot change either as they’re controlled by an active member, required for an active member’s lore, or were requests not to be changed.
Dark Green countries are ones that need no changes or only very minor changes such as changes in the language uses for the country.
Light Green are the countries I have modified to a certain extent (see the next map for more details).
Red are the countries I have not modified as there is no consensus what to replace them with, or I have no ideas on what to replace them with.

Yellow are unknowns if they will need to be changed or not, either due to proximity to an active member or are nations that would require me to work alongside someone to integrate into the lore.
San Ba – An incredibly old member of the community and close to Orioni, I am unsure if O would want San Ba to be changed as he’s already been working on it behind the scenes.
Byzantium Nova – A very important historic nation to Azania, it would require constant input from both Cristina and Tagmatium to ensure lore is not broken. Most likely option here is just to make the name grammatically correct.
Bashan – talks are going on on the possibility of Bashan being in Semitic northern Alharu, although the historic ramifications means this needs to be put on hold temporarily.
Havebergen and Vanamrambaion – very close in proximity to Tagmatium and Havebergen being itself a very old member of the community.

 

0a7isJF.png

Here all the nations modified are shown. Nations with green are the ones with the least changes as only the etymological roots of their nation’s name have been changed to reflect their new cultures. Other then that and possible future minor changes to terminology used within the nations, there are no other changes.

Yellow countries only required a change to their flags, such as Cabarria (which used the flag of Albania) and Damak Var (which is a more complicated story, but for now the only change done is the flag, which was made by Orioni).

Blue flags required both flag and name/etymology changes, but the lore can remain largely intact.

Lastly are the nations highlighted in red. These required complete overhauls of their lore, although some required more than others – such as Ide Jima being able to retain its current name.

At the end of this post will be a list of all Azania changes.

 

Phase 2.4 Revisit – Connections to the rest of Eurth.
Iverica was the only one to speak about the Central Europan proposal, and below I made a second proposal follow Iverica’s requests for the Hispanic (Yellow) nations to be shifted closer to the centre, which was done by flipping the Hispanic and Francophone nations locations around (it should be noted that these borders would most likely be changed in the advent of one of these proposals being chosen).

4WaddJR.png

It should also be mentioned that these changes to the Romance nations has come at the cost of potential SE Asian nations, primarily Bainbridge Islands / Lahui, however more precise changes to allow for their existence can be done, or they can be moved onto Alharu’s SE Asia region around the Synthe Sea.

 

Phase 2.3 – Nation Change List (AZANIA)
These are all draft / proposals that can be changed. If you don't like any of the changes done in these proposals - say so! The last thing I want is for the Europans to be unhappy about the changes being done. All of these proposals are being shown in bulk to centralise discussion about said changes, and only once we reach a consensus will the map and iiWikis be changed to reflect this. For now only the Azanian countries that will be changed will be shown. Once a consensus on Azania is found, the Oriental and Burania nations will be posted. (And also because the forum is started to do weird things the more I write and links I post so I'm afraid if I do the whole thing, the post will be corrupted).

There is also a couple terms that must be explained before going into the list:

Himaya - This term is most predominately used in Azania to mean an Empire that primarily expands through surrounding its core territories with tributary states of varying autonomy. Such as the numerous empires of China or the empires of Mesoamerica (e.g. the Aztec Empire). This is different to regular empires as Himayas very rarely try to convert tributaries to their core culture or religions (although this still happens on occasion) and instead use them more as secondary resource pools and buffer states.

Azanian Wars - These are a collection of increasingly vicious and expensive wars between the Himayas of Yuropa and Norrium (rebooted Hakenium) across central Azania in the mid 1900s which led to the eventual collapse of much of the old Azanian powerbases in favour of newer powers.

Spiritual Republic - These are theocratic republics akin to Islamic Republics for the Inkolo Faith, a decentralised monotheistic religion that follows God (uNkulunkulu / Nhialic) and numerous spiritual beliefs similar to those of its neighbours, such as spiritual possession, oxen sacrifice, and religious power coming from the wurld around them. Inkolo primarily takes inspiration from Dinka, Zulu, and Nilotic native religions. It's most prevelent in southern Azania

Map Colours - Dark green represents modern territories, with orange any autonomous regions. Light green represents historically significant territories, such as ex-tributaries, irridentist claims, etc.

1) Azania
Azania is perhaps the subcontinent most changed now with the subcontinent further subdivided into smaller regions:
Blue - Coastal Azania, dominated by the Wajism faith and the two large Himayas of Wajoka (Dragonryders) and Nykia (Jilderen). Generally the most economically active part of Azania outside of Pinj Lwo (Ayubi) and the most ethnically homogenous.
Pink - Cabarria and Haruspexian Zharr, influenced heavily by the Occident these two states are more like northern Europa and Argis then their neighbours.
Yellow - Northern Azania, this region has been Yuropa's backyard throughout history and has only recently been given the independence they desire, though most of these countries have just replaced one imperial oppressor with a national one.
Green - Southern Azania, controlled by the Inkolo religion and historically a part of the Norrium Empire. Most of these ex-states are Spiritual Republics or to some degree economically dependent on Norrium.
50luyZy.png

1.1) @Wellsy, aka the Overkingdom of Cabarria
T1hymML.png  6aZZBr9.png  m9lhu3H.png  72Pomkf.png
The only change being made to the Overkingdom of Cabarria is a flag change, due to Cabarria using the modern day Albanian flag. Above are four flags I've made that could be potential replacements.

The Azanian Cross - A flag based off the nordic flags, as Cabarria itself is an Anglish speaking nation with a clear Anglo-based political system. It's up to @Haruspex whether or not he wishes to keep those aspects of Cabarria. The flag uses Pan-Yuropan colours as a way to show solidarity to its neighbours and to possibly any Azanian cultures within it's borders.

The 14 Stripes - Cabarria has 8 provinces, but an eight striped flag is boring so I will admit I did arbitrarily boost that to 14 provinces when coming up with symbolism for the flag. The colours also share the same symbolism as with the Azanian Cross

Albania But Cooler - Yes that's the flag's unofficial name. I took the symbolism of the Albanian flag (the eagle and red background on the Albanian flag representing Byzantine Imperial Flag, perhaps in this case it represents the Aroman Empire?) but Germanic-ified it using a generic eagle. The two versions (one using Pan-Yuropan colours and one using Aroman colours) are just a stylistic choice.



1.2) Empire of @Dragonryders
Dragonryders has already had a name change vote, to which my proposals were selected as the best answer. As such Dragonryders is being replaced by the Wajoka Himaya / Wajoka Empire. The name of which comes from the phrase "Wapanda farasi wa Joka", "Riders of the Dragon".

Geography
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Wajoka is divided by the northern lightly populated desert and the central and southern savannah grasslands. In the south along the south-central valley are long stretches of savannah forests where much of the population and urbanisation of the country is found, along with the capital of Mungumji (City of Mungu/God).

History
Wajoka is an ancient power in Azania, with records of past Wajokan empires existing as far back as Aroman records. Pre-1000s Wajoka was considered an expansionary power often attempted to conquer and annexed Cabarria and down south into modern day Faramount and Zevrium (Afropa). However past 1100 the Wajokan Himayas collapsed into infighting and eventually completely dissolved into smaller tribal states. From the early 1300s to early 1400s a new power, calling itself Wa Joka ("The Dragon") begin to rise out of the ashes of the dead Himayas to begin the reconquest and reformation of the Wajoka Himaya. However once it reached it's current modern borders by 1413, Wa Joka fell into a lull of territorial isolationism, only allowing foreigners into the country if they were merchants or diplomats. Even through the late modern period Wajoka (as it began to be called) remained semi-isolationist as a culture and as a people, only attempting to conquer Cabarria twice in 1849 and 1871.

It was only the arrival of the Europan Financial Crisis in the mid-2000s did Wajoka stir, as one of the few economically stable states due to its few connections to the outside wurld, Wajoka found itself as a new potential player in Azanian and even Adlantic politics, although has only made small moves in the form of expanding trade. Although with a growing urbanising population, if Wajoka was to ever seek out a modern empire. Now is the time.

Politics
Wajoka is, by law, a Himaya, and does divide its empire into 12 tributaries and only the south-central valley being 'core Wa Joka'. But the nation is largely democratic and equal due to the little differences in culture between central Wa Joka and the wider Wajokan population. Every 8 years the population votes for members of the Tributary Council, a parliament/senate like body that acts as the main judiciary and legislative body of the Himaya. The Emperor of Wajoka rarely intervenes in politics, preferring to take a constitutional role in the nation.

Economy
A large proportion of Wajoka’s economy is derived from plant and pulp export, along with wood from its massive logging and palm oil / Soybean plantations. Much of it’s original Savannah forests have been deforested and replaced with said plantations. A secondary export is of dyes, particularly a very intense black dye used for ink pens, known as Joka Black.

Wajoka is known to have large untapped oil reserves, with only 10% of it being actively drilled for.

Culture
Primarily based off the Swahili people, although replace Arabic influence with Latin from the Aroman Empire and English from Cabarria. The Wajokans follow a faith called Wajism, which can be summed up to be in a belief in a great eastern city, home to the Gods, situated where the Sun rises from the Eurth every day. It is fabled the sun’s rise comes out of some far eastern mountains known only as the “Milima ya Mungu” (God’s Mountains). This religion is based off the current Dragonryders religion.

Flag Proposals
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1.3) The Archduchy of @Jilderen
The Archduchy of Jilderen is being replaced with the The Nykia’s Noble Confederacy of Mambomharaivhu and the Vhan. Known informally as the Nykia Confederacy. Jilderen, thankfully, has a very comprehensive factbook which can be easily translated over to it's new version.

Geography
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the Nykia Confederacy is split between two subnational countries, Mambomharaivhu which takes up the entirety of the mainland of Nykia, and Vhan, the island within the Rivdon bay separating the Nykia Confederacy and Faramount. The North-West and Eastern thirds of the mainland are covered in Savannah grasslands, with the central third made up of a mixture of Savannah woodlands and recently deforested grasslands.

The island of Vhan as well as the northern coast below Vhan on the mainland are covered in nationally protected rainforests, although much of it has been deforested in the past and in the modern day for the use of tropical cash crop plantations. The capital, Musha, is located south-east on the coast near Jilderen's current capital.

History
Nykia is a fairly new nation within Azania, as for much of its history were cycles of unification under a Himaya (Tributary Empire) then subsequently collapsing. The first Himaya was established under Sekai the Tall in 12 CE, although archaeological finds have found a possibly even older state dating to the Azanian Iron Age from around 750 BC to 820 BC. From 1600 to 1700 the Mambomharaivh Kingdom began to rapidly rise in power due to strategic political haggling and the adoption of drill military from northern Europa, eventually conquering all of western Nykia by 1850.
The current confederation was established in 1890 made up of the Vhan and the western half of Mambomharaivhu, becoming a significant player in Azania and across southern Europa / northern Marenesia across the mid to late 1900s in which it conquered the eastern two tributaries from Norrium in the Azanian Wars.

Nykia only fell in power in the early to mid 2000s Europan Financial Crisis. However Nykia is one of the few nations on the continent that did not fall to civil war or coups and instead remained a key regional balancing force against the Occident’s Tagmatium, Adaptus, and Anglia. The rise of Atheism in the 2000s and 2010s has led to widespread protests for true democracy within the nation resulting in the nation’s external power becoming paralysed, the most recent in 2019 in the capital of Musha eventually devolving into riots leading to mass arrests, deaths of both protestors and police, and the Metropolitan Police Headquarters being set on fire although only sustained superficial damage.

Politics
The government of Nykia is split between the Mambom Government and the Vhan Government, with both under a confederate statute. The current Monarch of Mambom is Aleksande I, famous (or infamous in some circles) for being only half-Mambom, his mother the cousin to the highstanding Tagmatine Minister [Name not yet determined].

The Mambom Government is a Himaya Government (Tributary Empire), with five Tributary States (“Vanamambodiki” or “Little Kings” in Mambom). The Mambom Government is unicameral, with the main governing body being the “Ducal Chamber / Dukes’ Chamber” made up of twenty two appointed Dukes/Vanamambodiki. Twenty of the Dukes are appointed by the Monarch and distributed to the 5 tributaries according to their populations, and two representatives from the Vhan Government. Every six years the Ducal Chamber elects an Imperial Counsellor as a direct advisor to the Monarch.

The Vhan Government is bicameral and is more akin to a traditional Azanian/Europan kingdom led by Monarch Malofhanngwe / Malofhan. The government is broken up into the Commoner’s Chamber and the Nobility’s Chamber akin to the Anglian Governments (English/UK Parliament).

Although political parties are banned within the NYkia Confederacy, there are three distinct political factions: the Blues (Royalists, largest faction), the Reds (Socialist-Republicans, large faction primarily controlled by the growing Atheist community) and the Yellows (Spiritual-Republicans, small faction).

Economy
The main exports out of Jilderen are coffee, tea, and Paluvian cocoa beans along with the largest exporter of Sorghum and pumpkins on Eurth.

Flag Proposals
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1 – First flag is based off the original Jilderen flag, but with the moon/circle replaced with a water vase used by the Shona women, often carried on the top of the head.
2- Second flag is based off the flag of Jilderen, Zimbabwe (where the Shona form a majority), and the Bantustan Venda of South Africa.



1.4) Chrysiakti
Chrysiakti, who I could find zero evidence of actually existing beyond Anglia-related stuff, is being replaced with the Second Namican Republic.

Geography
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The country is dominated with desert steppe with the southern steppe primarily thick grasslands, and the north intermittent patches of bushes and grasses. The capital of Matjipolis / Matjieshuis is located on the coastline opposite of Cabarria's capital, and talks to construct a great bridge to connect the two cities is currently in the talks.

History
In the early 1800s, clans of the Namica people were being poached by Adaptan companies seeking out their own colony. The Namica peoples paid tribute to the Yuropans for protection, eventually being absorbed as the Unified Naman Protectorate.

In the mid 1900s the Republic of Namica broke away from Yuropan Himaya after the Azanian Wars with the Himaya of Norrium, forming the (First) Namica Republic as a unitary anocratic state. In the early 2000s when the Europan Financial Crisis hit, the Namica military took over the government due to a rise in riots and protests forming the Emergency Provisional Namica Government, and eventually a rewriting of the constitution to form the Second Namica Republic as a more equal federation.

Politics
The Namica Government is split between the lower Senate and the higher Council. The Senate is elected by those across the country every 4 years, with the higher Council acting as representatives for the numerous clans and peoples of Namica. Currently there are 15 states with 247 seats in the Senate. The nation’s head of state is a President.

The main political parties are the southern Ovahererica National Party, seeking independence of the numerous Herero Royal Houses and more pastoral economy and southern religious, conservative, cultures than the industrial, secular, north. As well as the Worker’s Union Party, socialist and pro-labour unions, and the Republican-Democratic Party, looking to further secularize the nation.

There are serious talks on renaming the nation’s to the “Republic of !gxakhwa” and consolidating the 15 states into three unitary domains (Namib, Herero, and Damaran) with high levels of autonomy. Effectively creating a third constitution/republic.

Economy
Namica is split between the northern industrial economy and the southern pastoral economy.

Culture
Khoekhoe People, primarily the Nama and Herero people. But also the Damara.
Lunar Veneration (Khoekhoe Religion). The Solar Eclipse is seen as a unifying theocratic symbol, the union of the Holy Fire and the Moon.

Flag Proposals
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The Eclipse Tricolours
- The first and second flags share the same symbolism of a tricolour with a charge representing a Solar Eclipse - a unifying symbol for the Nama, Herero, and Damara. The colours are the Pan-Yuropa colours symbolic of their recent past under Yuropa.

Independence Banner - The last flag is a very generic tricolour, because for interesting flags to pop out you sometimes need basic ones to fill in the generic spots.



1.5) Mawlika
Like Chrysiakti, Mawlika's past is either very obscure or non-existant, and is being replaced with the Nyamolo Republic of Mandenica, aka as Mandenica or the Nyamolo Republic.

Geography 
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Mandenica is scarred with valleys and mountains, promoting disunity, however the Nyamolo Class have managed to keep the nation mostly together through the use of light rail connects and geographically advantageous positioning of the capital of Manding in the central valley.

History
Before the 1700s the Mandenican identity was non-existent and were only known as the !uikhwa (Mountain People) by the Namicans. The region of modern day Mandenica was fought over by the Himayas of Yuropa and Norrium. In the end the two empires agreed to create a border state separating the two, calling it The Manden. Norrium provided The Manden with coastal access, carving territory away from the Cults of Gwèntabe (Modern day Kingdom of The Jubs).

Although The Manden was never officially annexed by neither empires, the Yuropans took the most control over the territory with the encroachment of Yuropan companies. Said companies would often employ the Nyamolo (educated class) within The Manden as their regional advisors and rulers, eventually forming a new caste system with the Nyamolo and their Jatigi rulers at the top. When the region gained true independence with the fall of the Yuropan and Norrium Himayas in the mid-1900s Azanian Wars, the Nyamolo remained in power and formed the Nyamolo Republic of Mandenica.

Politics
The government of Mandenica is highly hierarchical with full use of the caste system. The highest governing body is the Council of the Jatigi, with an advisory Nyamolo Senate. Before the Europan Financial Crisis, Mandenica was firmly an authoritarian state, however since the nation’s economic output had begun to decline, the Nyamolo and Jatigi have begun the slow process of democratisation to appease protesters, rioters, and Yuropa themselves breathing down their neck, with concepts for a unitary democratic senate in the works.

Economy
Mandenica’s largest export is from its mining industry, mostly coal, copper, iron, and numerous Rare Eurth Elements with significant deposits of sought-after crystals and gems such as lapis lazuli.
Agriculture is present, however much of it is subsidence based and only enough is produced to feed the nation with minimal exports.

Culture
Takes from the Mande People, primarily the Mandinka, however follows the same religion as Yuropa due to the conversion of the Nyamolo class by the Yuropan Corporations. Uses the N’Ko script for writing, with the Aroman Script primarily used in tourism and major cities.

The Mandenica panhandle and southern third are made up of similar ethnic groups to the Kingdom of The Jubs (Alshamal) looking to break away from Mandenica to either join The Jubs or form their own separate republics (“Republic of South Mandenica” and “Republic of the Panhandle”)

Flag Proposals
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Mali Banner - the flag uses the same design as the Imperial Banner of Musa I from the Mali Empire, a Mandinka-centric state, using the Pan-Yuropa colours.
Mountainous Azania - Heavily inspired from the flag of Yuropa, however the central sun has been replaced by Mandenica's ever-present mountains and dry land.
N'ko Pride - Using the N'ko script, the first two letters of Mandenica's name (MA) are embedded into a tricolour, based off a proposed Croatia flag. The first version has round edges and the second has sharp edges.



1.6) Yuropa
Pretty much the exact same however the use of a modified version of Hadza and the expansion of their history into modern day through the rise of the Yuropa Himaya in the early modern period and it's dissolution in the mid 1900s. Yuropa would also be well known for selling entire villages of people from their tributaries in Mandenica and Namica to aspiring colonies in the new wurld.



1.7) @Hakenium / Chefdom of Hakenrider
Haken is most well known for his posts on Hakburgers, but their factbooks were useful in crafting a new history for the nation of the Grand Himaya of Norrium.

Geography
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Above shows the modern borders of Norrium (Dark Green + Orange) as well as the Norrium Empire at it's greatest extent. Norrium’s geography is largely featureless except for the highlands to the north-west. The Norric people are divided between three groups: The northern Norr, the southern Ba, and the islander Tep people. The capital of Hakbar is located at the shortest point between the Tep islands and the Norrite mainland.

History
Norrium has always had a regional presence in Azania and the Kokstantinopoli Sea, one of the few Azanian states to actively compete with and subdue non-Azanians across its history since the fall of the Aroman Empire. The Empire/Himaya of Norrium over the years has grown and shrank, and was at its greatest extent in the 1700s-1900s when it stretched across much of southern Azania and competed with Yuropa for mainland dominance and Byzantium Nova and Damak Var for naval dominance.

It was only in the mid 1900s with the Azanian Wars did Norrium power decline, the economic and military expenses from the numerous wars with Yuropa and its neighbours draining the imperial coffers. This combined with loosing significant imperial territories in the wars, growing resentment from its tributaries, and rise of nationalism, led to the gradual collapse of the Norrium Himaya.

By the 2000s Norrium was a shell of its former self, but where the Europan Crisis led many nations to collapse into strife and chaos, the Norrite government saw this as an opportunity to expand. With the Somyev Republic unable to maintain order, Norrium offered annexation in return for becoming an autonomous zone and reinstating stability. The Somyev government accepted in 2009 to the dismay of the public, and was quickly incorporated back into the Himaya with a large proportion of the standing military sent into Somyev to subdue and arrest protestors. Since then the Himaya has been rewriting its constitution to reduce it’s bureaucracy (to limited success) and expanding its economy towards modernization, making it a rival to the Nykia Confederacy once more. Norrium has even begun to eye up the Kokstantinopoli and Haken Bays once again, wishing to relive the glory days of the Great Norrite Himaya.

Politics
The Norrite government is often described as bureaucratically-stuffed with competing demands across the numerous departments, something the current Emperor has been attempting to reign in. The government is bicameral with upper and lower parliaments with the lower parliament democratically elected and the upper parliament made up of noblemen.

The Autonomous Republic of Somyev is a unicameral state with very relax social laws allowed for casinos and red light districts across its own regional capital. Many of the highest figures of governance across Azania, even the spiritual republics, can be found at the top floors of these buildings.

Economy
The Norrium economy is largely driven by information technology and tourism, with a large proportion of the people within the country working in the services sector. Very little agriculture is done within Norrium except for a surprisingly large beef industry with the largest company – Hakburgers – a global brand.

Norrium also possesses numerous unequal trade agreements with it’s ex-tributaries to import cheap goods for their own economy.

Culture
Mambila People with significant minorities of Dinka and Luo. Somyev is majority Chamba. Uses a modified version of the N’ko script for writing. Most of the Norrites are officially of the Inkolo faith, but in practise most act like Athiests and rarely pray and perform rituals, looking down upon their Spiritual Republic neighbours as backwards and barbaric.

Flag Proposals
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The first four flags are all just clean ups of the current Hakenium flag,. The first symbol was made by me and the second symbol by @Orioni (IMO O's is much better). The different shape is the Norrium Imperial Standard, originally used by the military but expanded to be used for the national flag.

The last flag is based off the flags of Nigeria and Cameroon's tricolours as the places where the Mambila people originate from.



1.8) Islamic Theocracy of @Sa Hara
Sadly a lot of Sa Hara's previous work had to be discarded for them to fit the new Azania, but I tried to keep what I could to honour them. In their place is the Spiritual Republic of Abantium, aka the Third Republic of Abantium, or just Abantium.

Geography
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Abantium is surrounded by highlands, with their central region a low land savannah forest where most of the population resides, this made defending the territory historically incredibly difficult. As such the capital, Inhlokodolobha (no I did not make up the name it means The Capital (City) in Zulu. Zulu has a lot of long words) is located on the northern highlands away from possible invading ground armies.

History
For most of history, the lands of Abantium have been under the control of neighbouring states, with the Abantiums rarely ever maintaining their own independent nation. However Abantium being in the cross roads of Norrium and Byzantium Nova's empires; and the Himayas of Nykia and Wajoka; meant that the nobility and merchant classes of Abantium grew wealthy and powerful regional hegemons, who were able to haggle out a tributary under the Norrium Empire in the mid 1700s.

Abantium gained independence from Norrium in November of 1960 as a republic, but the head of state changed the constitution in 1964 to become a one party state and ruled with an iron fist and attempted to implement Norrium-based laws and customs into Abantium society. On the 10th of July 2005 the republic was overthrown by Spiritual Fundamentalists (sponsored by Norrium) to form the current theocratic republic in worship to the Inkolo faith.

Politics
The Abantium Government maintains a state capitalist economics model, standard for Spiritual Republics. The Diviner is also the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, controls the military intelligence and security operations, and has sole power to declare war or peace. The heads of the judiciary, state radio and television networks, the commanders of the police and military forces and six of the twelve members of the Guardian Council are appointed by the Diviner and/or the Assembly of Experts. The nation’s current Divinetrix (female Diviner) is Ewa Nothando II, her mother (Ewa I) ruling from 2005 to 2017.

Along side the Diviner is a group of advisors called the Assembly of Experts. The Assembly of Experts elects and dismisses the members of the Guardian Council on the basis of qualifications and popular esteem. The remaining six of the Guardian Council are elected by the people, although are just as likely to be dismissed by the Assembly of Experts or the Diviner.

Economy
Most of Abantium’s economy is reliant on petroleum, natural gas, and precious metals and are controlled by numerous private and national companies with minimal worker’s rights. The only other major sector in the economy is agriculture, but it is primarily local and subsistence based. Slavery is still a big issue in the country in mining and kidnapping of people from the rural areas of their neighbours, souring foreign relations even with other Spiritual Republics.

Culture
Southern Bantoid, primarily Zulu people.
The state religion of Abantium is Inkolo. All other religions are banned, including the irreligious.

Flag Proposals
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1
 - The first flag is based of the flag of Norrium, using black predominately with a white oxen symbol. The symbol of the ox is important to the Inkolo faith. Yellow and Green are colours associated with the initial national movements across Norrium leading to the liberation of Abantium, as well as symbolic of the fertile ground and agriculture of Abanatium.

2 - Second flag is just a simple tricolour of Green/Black/Yellow.

3 & 4 - Based off the current Sa Hara flag, the fourth version uses the Norrium Imperial Standard.



1.9) The Sultanate of Mahdah
Replaced by the Spiritual Republic of Yien

Geography
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The eastern half of Yien is dominated by rainforests and large palm oil and soybean plantations as well as home to numerous smaller Yien clans and dialects commonly called the Reel Clans. The western half and southern coast of the country is predominately the Rek Clan which hold most of the economic and political power of the nation. The capital of Wëngabiook (“Cow Herdsman”) is found at the narrow bay in western Yien.

History
Before being conquered by the Norrium Himaya in 1728, the Yien were split between multiple dynastical rulers, the largest and most influential being the Mahah Dynasty which ruled their own small colonial empire from the 17th to 18th centuries.

In Febuary of 1961, the Republic of Yien was declared and swiftly broke away from the Norrium Himaya. At first the republic was stable
Abantium gained indepenence in November of 1960 as a republic, but the head of state changed the constitution in 1964 to become a one party state.
On the 12th of August 2005 the republic was overthrown by Spiritual Fundamentalists sponsored by Norrium to form the current theocratic republic.

Politics
Much of the political sphere of Yien is dominated by the Rek Clan as the government was reorganised in 2009 into a unitary state, two years after the Spiritual Uprising, along with land reforms to unequally benefit the Reks.

Currently the Reel Clans are campaigning and protesting for eastern Yien to break away as their own federal republic called Reelium, with significant support across the eastern coastline. If Reelium was to gain independence, much of the Rek’s control over the tropical plantations would be lost and almost certainly lead to the economic destruction of western Yien – thus military presence is often used to pacify protestors and rioters.

Economy
The economy of Yien is primarily agricultural, following a state capitalist system, with significant exports being numerous types of nuts, primarily groundnuts, and the usual cash crops and grains with some cattle herding although largely subsistence. The biggest export out of Yien is palm oil and soybeans. In the western half of the country is low-level manufacturing of cheap goods primarily towards Ayubi, Norrium, and the southern Amutia coastal nations.

Culture
Nilotic, mostly Dinka.

Yien follows the same religion to Abantium, Inkolo, although is a lot more organised with a fixed stable hierarchy of priests and leaders. The nation’s theocratic leader is the Diviner Alier Mohan I since 2007. Uses a modified version of the N’ko script for writing.

Flag Proposals
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- The first flag represents the clans of Yien, the green and yellow for the Rek Clan for the savannah and industrial wealth of the nation and the blue and black for the Yien clans with the colours representing the sea and the agricultural wealth of the nation respectfully.
- The second proposal uses similar symbolism, however the green and yellow are a part of the initial nationalist movements that allowed Yien (and also Abantium) to gain independence.
3 &- The last two flags are based off the Sa Hara flag, following similar symbolism with the green field and the use of the face of a cow.



1.10) Kingdom of Ayubi
Replaced by the Spiritual Republic of Pinj Lwo / Lwo

Geography
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The entirety of the island of Pinj Lwo is flat and covered in tropical rainforests, however much of it has been cut down due to expanding urbanization. The island is pretty homogeneous, however all walks of life can be found within the urban environments.
 

History
During the Age of Reconnection in the 15th century, the Orinese arrived in Pinj Lwo, labeling them the ‘Dark Skinned Ones’. Relations with local leadership were mostly hostile. The Orinese ruled with the aid of tributary clans. Orinese presence remained relatively limited, leaving administration in the hands of pre-existing local leaders and power structures. This system lasted until the late 17th century when the Mahah Dynasty of Yien conquered the island from the Orinese. When the Mahah Dynasty was conquered by the Norrium Himaya in 1728, Lwo temporarily gained independence as its own kingdom, but was swiftly annexed by Norrium in 1731.

Pinj Lwo was until 1959 a part of the Norrium Himaya, but gained independence when one of the empire’s major fleets – primarily staffed by Lwoians – defected from the empire and instead declared Pinj Lwo independent. At first Pinj Lwo was a military junta, ran by the navy and a small number of ground troops, but with Abantium’s backslide into autocracy in 1964 and the other ex-Norrium states struggling to keep themselves above the tide, the military did something unprecedented: they listened to be the people.

From 1965 – 1969 the military junta reorganised itself into the Spiritual Republic of Pinj Lwo (first spiritual republic in Azania) and voluntarily let go of power after establishing a self-contained government with hard-to-break democratic systems. Even the clans that hard rules Pinj Lwo before the arrival of Norrium were given some low-level autonomy and the ability to elect for the upper house and the head of state.

To honour Admiral Ogweyo, the man in charge of the fleet and the one to have a personal hand in the reorganisation of Pinj Lwo from a junta to a democratic republic, the capital city was renamed to Ogweyodala (“Ogweyo City”) by the two clans that resided over the capital’s land.

Politics
The current Ruoth (Pinj Lwo’s version of the Diviner) is Pete Muga Ojuok, elected by a council of 34 clansmen from across the island.

The country possessed a bicameral unitary government with the Parliament of the Commons elected by the people democratically and an upper house the Inkolo Council, made up of clansmen also elected by the 34 recognised clans across Pinj Lwo. Every 3 years the members of the Parliament of the Commons are elected, with a 9 year term limit, and the Inkolo Council is elected every 6 years with no term limits. If a majority of the Inkolo Council wishes for the Ruoth to be ousted, they can take a vote of no confidence and oust the Ruoth, replacing them with one of their own and a new clansman elected by the now-Ruoth’s clan. Pete Muga has been the Ruoth since 2017.

Pinj Luo uses Single-Transferrable-Vote for elections, with First-Past-the-Post only used in run-offs within clans. It is often to find multi-party coalitions running the government.

Economy
The Lwoian economy is powered by intellectual and skilled labour jobs spread across numerous STEM professions along with a major aquatic agricultural industry of both fishing and underwater crops. Pinj Lwo is one of the few nations that were unaffected by the Europan Crisis, and in fact saw a rise in its standards of living.

 

Culture
Nilotic cultures, primarily the Luo people.

The Lwoians has a massive expatriate community across Eurth with one of the highest levels of interracial marriages abroad. This is due to the culture’s encouragement of interracial and interclan marriage and the absorbing ideas and traits from other cultures and civilisations. This has led to Pinj Lwo to become one of the most diverse and accepting nations despite being a strong theocracy and is generally considered one of the most socially liberal nations – although is still rather conservative when it comes to gender and sex identity.

The state religion of Pinj Lwo is Inkolo, but follows more liberal and decentralised sects than Yien or Abantium, with the Ruoth holding more social and economic power than political power.

The Lwoians use a modified version of the N’ko script for writing.

Flag Proposals
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1 & 2 - The first proposal is symbolic Pinj Lwo’s connections to the ocean with two stylised fish hooks and blue and white colouring.
3 - The second proposal uses 8 interconnected dots to representing a hypothetical Oxen Constellation
4 - The flag is primarily based off the Tanzanian and Kenyan flags, where the Luo people come from.
5 & 6 - Fourth and Fifth proposals uses design components from the Tanzanian and Kenyan flags along with the N’ko script for “Lwo” (ߥߟߏ).



1.11) Democratic Republic of @Afropa
Thankfully Afropa possesses some factbooks which made creating their replacement, the Democratic Republics of Zevrium

Geography
FKbYYR7.png

A majority of the population lives in the southern third of the country around Lake Lamar and the coastline. The country as a whole has a very homogeneous climate except for a wetter urbanised coastline. And ancient rainforest is theorised to have existed in the region, but was cut down by the Zevrium ancient city states for farming. The capital of Azanopa is found between Lake Lamar and the coastline

History
Since prehistoric times Zevrium’s coast has been the centre of fishing and sailing across the Rivdon Bay. Around the Birth of Christ numerous city states start to pop up along the Zevrium and Faramount’s coastlines with small colony towns along the Vhan island and the Mambomharaivhu coast. Thus further inland led semi nomadic lifestyles herding cattle, with documented attempts at domesticating zebra, but ultimately failing to do so.

From the 1300s to 1500s Zevrium pirates would raid across southern Azania, pillaging coastal cities, forming the Cot Riaal (Zebra) Confederation. Pillaging begun to decline in the 1600s and 1700s as nearby nations began to grow in maritime power and were able to hold back the Ijembegar, with them conquered by the Norrium Himaya in 1763 with the entirety of modern day Zevrium annexed by the start of the 1770s.

It was only after the Azanian wars when in 1958 the Republic of Cot Riaal (southern, Nuer, Zevrium) declared independence from Norrium, with the Republic of Bitarium (northern, Tiv, Zevrium) doing the same in 1959. In the mid 2000s the Europan Crisis resulted in Bitarium’s government falling to anarchy. Cot Riaal, not wishing for the chaos to spread to their own nation, swiftly annexed Bitarium and broke it into internal republics – Ichonga and Ipusium – with Cot Riaal’s territory becoming Kwer Kong, forming the 3 internal republics of modern day Zevrium in 2011.

Politics
As one of the few ex-tributaries of Norrium to be a secular state, Zevrium is a federal bicameral republic made up of 3 internally recognised countries: Republic of Ichonga, the Nuer Republic of Kwer Kong, and the Republic of Ipusium. Each of the Republics have their own devolved unicameral parliaments elected by the people of the republics through internal countys. Every 6 years the nation as a whole votes for the members of the National Parliament which writes and produces federal laws across the whole nation.

Each of the Zevrium republics has their own Prime Minister who together form a three-person coalition as the head(s) of state/government.

Economy
Zevrium’s greatest export is coffee and cotton, with the north primarily subsidence farming.

Culture
Northern landlocked regions of Zevrium are based off the Tivoid Tiv people, with the southern coast the Nilotic Nuer. The north are decentralized practitioners of Inkolo and the south following their own ethnic faiths related to Inkolo and Wajoka/western Nykia.

Flag Proposals
DZ2B2Ou.png  xhcvSom.png  vyd7rFu.png  lS5CGxU.png  pibQf4v.png

Zebra Stripes - The first two flags are based off the stripes of the Zebra, an important animal to the Zevriums. The 11 stripes represent the 11 counties that make up the 3 internal republics of Zevrium
National Zevrium Banner - The remaining three flags are based off the flags of South Sudan and Cameroon with differing colour palettes.



1.12) State of Alshamal
Replaced by the Kingdom of the Jubs, informally known as the Kingdom of the Cults.

Geography
EnVjYIq.png
The country is flat with sprawling savannah grasslands, shrublands, and forests. The northern half are grasslands and is primarily the Chamba Leko people, and the south are savannah forests (called “The Bush”) inhabited by the Chamba Daka.

History
The area often thought of as The Jubs was much larger historically, reaching across the entire Alsha Plains into central Mandenica, Norrium’s Autonomous Republic of Somyev, and northern Abantium. However the encroachment of the growing Norrium/Yuropan Himayan powers over the 1600-1800s resulted in many of the cults on the fringes of The Jubs being dismantled as they were considered too great a threat to the Himayas’ control over the regions.

The modern day territories of The Jubs was eventually conquered by the Norrium Himaya in 1773 and made into a protectorate and eventually became the main front in the Azanian Wars. As part of the final treaties The Jubs gained independence in 1955 as a kingdom.

Politics
The nation of The Jubs is an Androcracy, wherein the highest ranking priests and diviners of a cult compete against one another in trials to determine one’s ‘masculinity’. Both and men and woman can and do participate. Those who come out on top in the trials become the cult’s leader and join the Cult Council which is made up of representatives of over 450 cults across The Jubs.

Economy
The Jubs has a very subsidence-level economy, rarely exporting and only infrequently importing goods from Norrium. Almost the entirety of the population are herders or farmers, with only a small amount of a manufacturing in the capital, known as Su's City.

Culture
Northern Bantoid, primarily the Chamba people.

Within The Jubs, cults – both public and secretive – are widespread and a normalised part of society. Native Jubians must join a cult if they wish to marry/drink alcohol/etc. Those who are not part of a cult or were kicked out of their cult are considered outcasts and can be legally discriminated against.

Flag Proposals
p0jsRU8.png  9poUfZe.png  v7wgs2H.png

1 - 
Tricolour represents the savannah and the sun, with the symbol in the centre a Bushcow Mask, a mask almost every clan possesses.
2 - The second proposal represents a sunset upon the savannah’s grasslands.
3 - The third proposal is inspired by the Byzantium Nova flag, as the King was visiting the country with his wife early into The Jub’s first couple years of independence.

3MvLaoH.png

Edited by Metztlitlaca
Formatting (see edit history)
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Concerning Cabarria, what makes the nation, will be kept. Flag might be updated to include Haru emblem within it, but for the most part, whatever of Cabarria survived, will become a provisional holding similar to Kaldana. 

Also, lovely work sir. Excellent job.

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First of all I’d like to say that all of the work so far in this thread has been great and I’m certain that this work will help to smooth out the problems in Europa’s culture, geography and history. 
 

Im writing this at the suggestion of @Metztlitlaca after a discussion yesterday about solutions to Europa. I see Solution 3 as the best of those laid out above. This is because it would end the culture clashes between European and Asian states, allow for countries to be moved to locations that would better suit their history and culture, and leave more room for new nations, whether NPCs or new members, to take their place in Europa.

My idea would be to move the Asian nations of Europa, with some exceptions, to the New Wurld, and then use the additional space gained to move around the European and Turkic nations.

Below is a first draft to improve the cultural situation, with new npcs that I would propose to fill the plot holes.

EuropaShuffle.png
The nations labelled have been moved.

Below this will be a brief description and ideas for the nations labelled A.1 to A.8. The northern peninsula of the Orient in this proposal would be the new home of the Turkic culture, with most of the nations downsized. Having moved them eastwards we can now move the Europeans northwards. This has been an idea of mine for a while but I couldn’t fully figure out how to do this without a major movement of most of the countries of Europa. Having moved northwards they’ll no longer have to be in the desert which wouldn’t fit with their history or their culture. I hope that with this such arrangement, though I’m sure it would have to be changed a few times before it worked best, the most realistic Europa could be realised.

A.1

This country would be the homeland for the mainland Germans of Eurth, which, along with some others, Eurth has lacked.

A.2

A.2 Is the homeland of the Dutch speaking peoples of the Wurld, though Variota has a history of seafaring ancestors, a homeland would be far more plausible considering there were Dutch speaking colonies around the Wurld. 

A.3

This would be similar to Austria, I have had an idea for an Austrian Empire like state including A.1,2,3 and 4, this empire could help allow for the Slavic peoples of Europa passage to the new Wurld. 

A.4

A.4 would be Baltic and Belarusian peoples.

A.5

This would be Polish, with certain Romanian and Slovak minorities as well as Kashubians.

A.6

This is the largest of the proposed new countries and would therefore have a few ethnic and cultural groups. In this area would be mainly Russians and Ukrainians, with Moldovans and Turkic Minorities.

A.7

A.7 Would be home to other Slavs such as Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians.

A.8

Finally A.8 would be home to Serbs, Bulgarians and possibly Caucus peoples such as the Armenians.

I haven’t yet begun to work on what to do with Amutia, and how the now nearly empty desert would be filled, but I would suggest that it be left relatively empty for new members to be able to locate there, as well as possibly expanding or introducing NPCs to the area. Byzantium Nova was tricky for me, still considering that Bashan may or may not be moved, but should that location not be available, a nearby location, or it’s current location, may still suffice.

Realising now that the above is a long list and would require a lot of wurldbuilding, I would like to, should a version of this plan be accepted, open it up to Metz’s idea of nation adoption, in which the more experienced players can take on a new challenge should they choose to. Along with this I would suggest that new members joining Eurth could have the opportunity to take the place of the NPCs, should they be deemed responsible and committed enough to take their place, this could be done without changing the culture much, but allowing the new member to decide most of their nation’s history and current affairs within the bounds of the preexisting consensus.

I understand that the map and the NPCs proposed would have to be changed several times until it satisfies everyone but some sacrifices might have to be made for the sake of sorting out Europa.

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On 7/4/2021 at 8:51 AM, Metztlitlaca said:

the !Italian Cristina and Mantella remain as is but new options for Italian states will be opened up, so Cristina doesn’t have to have a large empire if they do not wish to. It would also mean separate Italian cultures and accents could have their own states (same goes for the French and Spanish nations).

That would work jut fine for me. Cristinese seafarers may have established some oversea colonies/trading posts here and there, but they were probably directly ruled by some joint-stock company or noble house trade company, not under the Cristinese Crown itself. Mantella may have established some colonies too, but the Mantellan troubled history of internal conflicts between its many noble houses and wars with neighbors (Skrovja, Emakera, Lysia, Cristina, etc) would made things too hard for them to keep those overseas possessions for long.

I am also using RL Italian as the Cristinese language and Corso for Mantella. I think we could use the many regional variants and dialects of the Italian language (like Talian, Venetian and Florentine dialect) for different Italian nations on Eurth.

Edited by Cristina (see edit history)
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On 7/31/2021 at 7:04 PM, Haruspex said:

Concerning Cabarria, what makes the nation, will be kept. Flag might be updated to include Haru emblem within it, but for the most part, whatever of Cabarria survived, will become a provisional holding similar to Kaldana. 

Also, lovely work sir. Excellent job.

This is completely a seperate discussion, mind.

Namely an expansion that needs its own request thread in the Map subforum, not a flag change request in an OOC thread about lore changes.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As no one has said anything in objection to the Azania nations I will be adding them in the next map update :).
(Also no one has said anything about the flags so I'll just choose which ones go on the map)

I will be posting the list of Oriental and Burania nations soon (once a map draft with the Azania nations is up).

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Nice work there @Metztlitlaca. I had planned on replying sooner and longer. Unfortunately, your second proposal arrived a day before I departed on holiday and I've returned only just this Wednesday.

  • 2.1 Europa Cultural Overview. The cultural overview matches largely what I had in mind myself.
  • 2.2. Lore continuity. Some of it can be explained by having cultures evolve in the New Wurld and scrapping the Europan ancestors, for example Dravidian. Mind that the New Wurld also has its quirks with two !Asian clusters on the eastern side (Yeosan, Rhava, Kertosono, Utogo) and western side (SSI, Andalla, Yeosan, Heiheguo, ex-Selayar, ex-Fjallshima). For this part I have to agree with what @Haruspex wrote in Discord: "[...] why is there a need to draw heavily to essentially mirror IRL with Europa/New Wurld? Isnt the nations that compose the two continents what makes the region, not the culture mirror to RL?"
  • 2.3 Fixing the lore. To be complete I'll also include the other options mentioned on Discord last July. Back then I already concluded that: "Neither of these are interesting."
    • Solution 6: nuke the culture map and let everyone new players settle everywhere regardless of where their culture fits in.
    • Solution 7: switch some the New Wurld nations so they're on the 'correct' side of their continents.
  • 2.4 Connections to the Rest of Eurth. A difficult piece of the puzzle. This part I don't quite follow. As I read it, the problem involves Romance nations' cultural connections and realism, and the proposed solution is to move them further towards the Equator. If Lysia needs to connect to an ocean, they could be giving a northern coastline, yes?

Second, about the Azanian countries mentioned here. Really nice work there.

  • 1.1 Wellsy, aka the Overkingdom of Cabarria. The 3rd flag works quite well. The other things are for @Haruspex to decide.
  • 1.2 Empire of Dragonryders. Good solution. On IIWiki I'd preserve the "dragonryders" reference as an ancient nickname, but nothing more.
  • 1.3 Archduchy of Jilderen. Good solution. They do indeed have an extensive factbook which can be used. We can make Jilderen the name of a previous state, and have the Nykia Confederacy be the nation you wrote begins in 1890s. I kinda like the original flag with the Moon on it, but this can also be pushed back in time as a reference to a !Islamic history. I'd pick the 1st flag with the Shona vase on it.
  • 1.4 Chrysiakti. No opinion on this matter. Something for @Tagmatium Rules to decide.
  • 1.5 Mawlika. Good solution. The 2nd flag with the mountains.
  • 1.6 Yuropa. Good solution.
  • 1.7 Hakenium. Good solution. Their current black flag can also be pushed in time as a reference to the !Islamic influence, much like with 1.3 Jilderen.
  • 1.8 Islamic Theocracy of Sa Hara. Good solution. Either the 1st or 2nd flag.
  • 1.9 Sultanate of Mahdah. Good solution. This NPC was ported from a player who had factbooks on NS, most of which I combined into this page: https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Mahdah They're mostly used to explain the origins of !Islam which we also need to revisit. The 1st flag with four colours.
  • 1.10 Kingdom of Ayubi. This is the only one whereI'd like to keep the name and flag as they are. I've been integrating the island into my own lore as part of a former colonial empire and I'd hate to rewrite all of this. (The same will apply to some other Oriental nations.) The new lore you wrote does fit very well into the existing story. With permission, I'd like to integrate this and further develop it.
  • 1.11 Democratic Republic of Afropa. Good solution.
  • 1.12 State of Alshamal. Good solution. This NPC is only briefly mentioned during the ongoing Anglian conflict and can be easily replaced.

I think that this is excellent work you've done. 

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Phase 2.3 Revisit Revisit – Fixing the Lore

2.3.1: The Jubs & Dragon Ryders

Thus far reception to the Azania nations appear to be largely positive - minus one:
The Jubs
People don't like The Jubs. So I have a couple ideas for replacement names for The Jubs.

1) Tchambium
Named directly for the Chamba people, and uses the -ium suffix associated with Norrium states, cementing it as a south Azanian state. However it's stark difference in culture to the rest of southern Azania makes the name more conforming than perhaps The Jubs would want to be.

2) Sambia
Very simple and plain, though is a bit close to Zambia.

3) Central Azanian Kingdom
Like the Central African Republic, but a kingdom!

Another thing is the possibility of Dragon Ryder's just being shortened to Ryders as an Anglish exonym for the nation. I wouldn't mind for this as it keeps most stuff related to them up to date.

2.3.2: Ayubi
@Orioni's desire to keep Ayubi has been noted and Pinj Lwo will be reverted back to Ayubi ASAP - and yes you have permission to use the lore, it's community-owned.

2.3.3: Islam
Orioni mentioned Islam within Azania, however I do not believe we need Islam within Europa - at least as a religion large enough to encompass multiple nations. Alharu contains the majority of our Middle East nations and is being positioned to be the Middle East homeland of Eurth, as well as home to our only Islamic nation/member. There is also the possibility of Bashan being moved once ideas for how Judaism got from Alharu to Europa come about (perhaps traders/merchants into the Aroman Empire?- if they have enough knowledge of the wurld for Kirvinans to flee to southern Aurelia I suspect they would have decent knowledge of Alharu and southern Argis.).

I think the Spiritual Republics work well as a Islamic Republic-substitute in Azania, and helps us stand out from other regions that prefer to mirror the real wurld more closely.

2.3.4: Oriental Nations
Below is the list of Oriental Nations

2.3.4.1: Kingdom of @Koku
Replaced by... Nothing!. Okay not entirely nothing, Koku's culture has been replaced by Alt-Japonic with it's etymology changed to reflect it:
The term ‘koku’ meaning ‘Moss Place’ in Kokese derives from !oldjapanese ‘koke ku’.

Geography
u2NHGj5.png

History / Politics / History

Same as regular Koku

Culture
Based off Japanese with some meta influence from Thai and Manchu.
Religion a mix of Theravada Buddhism and Manchu Shamanism. The elephant is a sacred animal to the Kokese.

Flag Proposals
vzUpR7y.png   7KA0CEW.png   tofdXLR.png



2.3.4.4: @Mongol-Swedes
Replaced by the Khanate of Turikel
The Türikel Khaganate/Khanate gets its name from Kazakh meaning “Turkic State”, from Old Turkic “Türük el” “State of the Turks”.

Geography:
q7CWW5g.png

The geography of Turikel is largely flat with one major river system (Keremet Rivers) dividing the main Turikelian tribes.

History:
Turikel has always been a force within northern Europa, primarily as semi-nomadic hoards ransacking and conquering the neighbouring nations. But with the arrival of gunpowder in the mid to late 1200s resulted in modern day Turikel and other neighbouring semi-nomads to being conquered by their neighbours. The area of what became modern day Turikel was conquered by Volsci, with other Turik people around Burania being conquered by Aroman-Descendent crusaders, Oriental Empires, and the northern Germanic people.

The Turikelians were used by the Volsci as their military pool, which overtime gave the region increased power and autonomy. By the mid 1400s the Turikelians were near-equals to the Volsci, however a succession crisis within the Volsci and the rise of ships more easily defended from Volsci pirates, the empire started to fall into chaos and many of the Turik tribes broke away from Volsci rule to form their own Turikelian nation states.

Over the course of the 1500s and into the early 1600s the Turikelian tribes slowly unified under a single banner, the First Türikel Khaganate, which proved to be a regional powerhouse and forced all nearby states to invest in ground defences rather than the colonial objectives of those in Amutia and the southern Orient. The only times of peace the Turikel’s neighbours saw was when the khanate would intermittently collapse and take several decades to reform. At times the Turikelian hoards even reached the gates of Ide Jima and the Eebay. It was only in the 1900s with the arrival of industrial warfare was the Khanate finally subdued.

In 1963 the Christian Turik of the Ouzoi (converted by the Aroman-Descendent crusaders) declared independence from the Khanate. At first the Khanate would not accept this, however with Ouzoi winning a decisive victory at the city of Toshkent, the Holy Republic of Ouzoia was declared. With such a humiliating defeat, many other Turikelian tribes within the khanate demanded independence. To avoid complete collapse the Turikel Khanate reorganised itself into a tribal federation in the 80s and began the process of moving funds from the military towards economic growth and diversification.

Due to the new-ish economy of Turikel, it was one of the few nations not hit by the Europan Crisis, however the collapse of Uzesium into a hard-line Atheistic state and the troubles with its neighbours have left Turikel as the regional babysitter and international meddler along with Akirryu, their current closest frenemy.

Politics:
Confederacy of 9 “Taypa” (tribal organizations) under a single Ashina-Khan. Most of the Taypa are East Turkic, but several West Turkic and even a North Germanic Taypa (Sved Taypa) exist within the confederacy made up of historic migrant workers from modern day Volci at around the industrial revolution era.

Economy:
The Turikel economy is diverse with both agricultural products, primarily meat (cattle and horse) and livestock goods with major agricultural exports of traditionally !Anatolian and !Mesopotamian fruits. As well as industrial manufacturing of cheap goods across Europa and to Akiiryu primarily.

Culture:
Primarily based off the Kazakhs, pre-Russian Central Asians, Siberians, and East Asians.
The Turikelians are a Tengrist-Midigulan state, with a large part of the culture and society based around the ‘family’/’tribe’ and communal living. The Turikelians are often seen as boastful, arrogant, and insecure by their neighbours, although this more comes from a misinterpretation of their strict honour-based culture. They also use the Old Turkic Script for writing.

Capital City:
Asenqala (“Asan City”)

Flag Proposals:
4izJAoS.png   5KXDm2A.png   VVoKrPH.png
1) All three flags use the same red/black colour scheme as the original Mongol-Swedes anarchist flag, besides the first proposal which also possesses a light blue as a representation of it's Turkic culture. The 9 dots represent the 9 Taypa of Turikel.
2) This design was just the Mongol-Swedes current flag but made its anarchist roots more hidden in the design.
3) The 9 stars represent the 9 Taypa with the central symbol is the combination of 2 symbols from the Old Turkic Script which stand for the first two letters of Turikel's name.


2.3.4.3: United Republic of @Qardania
Replaced by the Republic of Dölet / Dolet.

Geography
dy32vuq.png

Dolet possesses a homogeneous temperate climate across the country with an ethnically homogeneous culture and people.

History:
For a long time Dolet was influenced by the nation states to their east, and were a lot more sedentary than their nomadic neighbours and would often act as a pseudo-Ogiwins within Jaihu history. However Dolet always maintained a high level of independence compared to the other Ogiwins in one part due to different cultures but also due to always maintain a large standing army due to the constant attacks by their nomadic brothers. This meant in the age of empires when other smaller states were being annexed, the Ogiwins of Dolet was able to maintain independence as its own self-proclaimed Kingdom of Idiqut in 1722 when the Ogiwins unified into a single entity under the Act of Unification under Jülyen the Great.

In 1700 the king was overthrown by one of the Ogiwin nobility, the Qandri Dynasty/Ogiwin, to establish the Dolet Diarchy taking inspiration from their Oriental and Occidental neighbours and moving the nation towards more western nation building, establishing the National Congress in 1711 and Provincial Governors, stripping the other Ogiwins of their power. In 1822 the Qandri Patriarch and Matriarch relinquished much of their power to establish the Republic of Dolet.

Politics:
The president is the head of state of Dolet and has the power to veto laws voted by the National Congress that have less than a 60% approval. The president is also the head of the armed forces.
When the president has been impeached or in times of national crisis, the Qandri Dynastic Patriarch and Matriarch can absorb the powers of the president temporarily and appoint members to the National Congress.
The president has a 6 year election cycle with no term limits with those on the National Congress having elections every 3 years and no Qandri-appointed members can serve more than 2 consecutive terms, although elected members have no such term limits.

Economy:
Dolet has a generic textiles/apparel industry with some export of local foods and drinks.

Culture:
Primarily Pre-China Uighurs but also Qardania’s current culture and influence from Jaihu/Inagata.
Varushi faith renamed to Tarazism.
The Qandri Dynastic Patriach and Matriarch are the heads of the national religion of Dolet, the main divide between themselves and the rest of the Turik people (other than language). The religion, Tarazism, is based off the concepts of balance and duality (akin to many of the central and eastern religions of Europa). The monotheistic religion follows God, called Qar.
Dolet uses a modified version of the Old Turkic Script for writing.

Capital City:
Büyük Sheher

Flag Proposals:
ctmRwv3.png   P9xzCtO.png
1) Although the Dolet flag uses a cross, its more of a sign of ‘western governance’ brought upon by the Qandri Dynasty rather then any allegiance to Christianity.

2) Based off one of the Jaihu flag proposals, it’s representative of their close ties to Jaihu/Inagatan imperial history although replaces the green with their national light blue colour representing the sky and with an Old Turkic Rune for the letter “k”*, which is a letter strongly associated with the Qandri Dynasty.

Keeping the current flag also works, although we’ll need to check where the flag’s charge comes from.


2.3.4.4: Unified Imperium of @Vetok
Replaced by the New Imperium of Ouzoia

Geography
M2GSeon.png
Ouzoia is bordered by mountains to the south-east and seas across it’s western and northern coastlines giving it a well defensible territory. The mixing of Occidental and Oghuz peoples is most obvious starting at the coastlines and moving towards the south-east mountains, and the people gradually go from clear mixed descent towards complete Oghuz/Turik blood.

History
In the 1200s, when the Turik khanates were weak from war with gunpowder wielding armies, a large christian army from Tagmatium and Vanamrambaion launched crusades upon the western coastline and successfully captured much of the eastern Turik lands by 1215 who declared a ‘New Aroman Imperium’.

Christianity was brought onto the Oghuz people of the region, and through carrot and stick policies gradually converted them to Aroman Christianity. The Crusaders had also intermingled with the Christianized Oghuz Turiks resulting in the Ouzoians having facial features more commonly associated with the Occident than northern Azania or Burania. However throughout the mid 1600s the First Türikel Khaganate had gradually been conquering the Ouzoian borderlands and by 1677 the whole of the New Imperium was annexed.

Over the 1700s to 1900s the Ouzoians would occasionally gain independence when the Turikelians were bickering amongst themselves but would almost always end up annexed once again when a new khanate formed. In 1963 The Ouzoi, feeling as though their religion and cultures were being oppressed and forced to merge with Tengrist Turiks, openly rebelled. With a decisive victory at the city of Toshkent Turikel had to admit defeat and allow the Ouzoi to form their own state, and thus the Holy Republic of Ouzoia was declared.

From 2015 to 2018 the Ouzoians were embroiled in a nasty civil war against an extremist group called The Congregation Of Humanity Unchained which held extremist Atheistic views and often led to the unjustified imprisonment of regular Atheists and the state affirming that only Aroman Christianity and close sects to it would be tolerated within Ouzoia, leading to further unrest even once the main CHU strongholds had been breached. Even to this day Ouzoia is struggling with social discourse and demands for change from both the oppressed and the Ouzoians alike. A second civil war appears to be on the horizon.

Politics:
The government is divided into numerous Logothesia (Ministries) with 6 in total. The current head of state is the 78 year old Poskinimor Vetok XII who holds absolute authority and who’s predecessors were the rulers of the Ouzoi region since the crusades.

Economy:
Due to the heavy destruction and casualties from the civil war, the Ouzoian economy is currently trying to rebuild itself but is largely failing beyond the coastline. What economy does against is primarily maritime through fish exports and militia companies.

Culture:
Primarily based off the Turkmen, Oghuz, DPRK, and Catholic Crusaders. A culture heavily embedded in militarism and ‘purity’. Generally seen as very conservative hard line Christians even by Tagmatine standards.
The language of the Ouzoia is primarily Turkmen, but has a large amount of borrowed words from the Tagmatine and Germanic languages, with much of the grammar simplified down to a partial creole.

Capital City:
Toshkent

Flag Proposals:
4pR6diU.png   DlcdzrU.png

1) The first proposal is a cross based off the original Vetok flag and the flag of Tagmatium
2) Flag very similar to Philippia, it’s intentionally just an inverted Vanamrambaoin and also a reference to the flag of the Duchy of Burgundy.

His current flag is also sufficient if neither of the above proposals are considered good.


2.3.4.5: Karthenia & Branchia
Karthenia is being replaced by the Republic of Gudewida and Baranchia is being replaced by the Republic of Türikhide / Turikhide.
From Gothic “Gutahiuda”, ‘Gothic People’.

Geography:
7VCNWVj.png   mVpQ2zW.png

History:

In the 1000s CE, the north-eastern half of Gudewida was divided among numerous smaller Guda kingdoms, the most important were Highrock/Hawstans, Sunts-Karth, and Narts-Karth. Often these groups would be raided by the Kynyk (Turik group in modern day Türikhide and western Gudewida related to the Ouzoians) with the Karths and Highrocks subsequently invading and conquering the Kynyk lands in return. This led to great amount of intermixing between the two ethnic groups resulting in much of those living in central Gudewida at the time to possess Turik ethnic traits and cultural practices. At this time the modern day central and western Gudewida territories were culturally Kynyk although were clearly of mixed heritage.

In 1211, with gunpowder from the Orient and the usage of drill military exercises allowed the Sunts-Karth to conquer the other Guda kingdoms to form the Kingdom of Hawstans. In the later 1200s the Kingdom of Hawstans conquered the Kynyk. Over the 1300s 1400s Hawstans would convert much of the Kynyk people towards a sect of Voltic Christianity known of Southern Orthodoxy. Although the territories were always seen as Markalands (Borderlands) by the ruling dynasty and thus saw no major cultural integration of the people other than for taxes.

When the First Turikel Khanate formed in the early 1600s the Kingdom of Hawstans was conquered by the Khanate. Once the Khanate collapsed the old kingdom was split between the Kingdom of Karthenia and the Kingdom of Kynykia. Almost every time the Khanate would reform the kingdom would either be outright conquered or converted in a tributary, or would be forced to put almost all of its forces into defence.

By the late 1800s this left Karthenia a highly centralised and militaristic state which quickly reconquered Kynykia once the Khanates power was tamed although did not incorporate the territories into the centralised Karthenian government. In 1952 Karthenia was overthrown for the Worker’s Republic of Gudewida. Land reforms in the 60s forced many of the Kynykoff their lands and forced to migrate west into modern day Türikhide, called Tynykland at the time, and the communist government promoted Gudawidans to migrate into the opened up land through selling the land to wealthy communists who would then set up communes for the Gudawidans to settle and partake in. This has come to be known as the Migile Skadus (The Great Shadow) in Gudewida and is largely seen with discomfort by modern day Republic of Gudewida, which overthrew the communist regime in 1993 with a bloodless coup.

Although the communist regieme was taken down the view upon the Kynykremained largely negative/apathetic in the 2000s with voting only given to older Kynykmen whereas the rest of Gudewida had full suffrage, resulting in the formation of the Kynyk Liberation Army in 2003 which sought for Türikhide to be its own independent republic. Throughout 2004 and 2005 Gudewida was wrought with civil conflict, primarily by the Gudewidan military and the KLA in modern day Türikhide. When the Europan Financial Crisis hit Gudewida and much of its economy fell into recession forcing Gudewida to pull back military spending and recognise Türikhide as an independent sovereign state.

It was only in 2018-2019 did relations between the Kynykand Gudewidans begin to move away from active hostility with the current Executive Triumvir actively trying to bridge the gap between the two nations including the unprecedented act of recognising the Migile Skadus as an act of ethnic cleansing, although no further acts of compensation have begun much to the criticism of the Türikhide government.

Gudewida Politics:
Gudewida government closely resembles the Volsci government with a Triumvirate possessing an Executive Triumvir (currently Nadar Digrskilla), Legislative Triumvir, and the Judiciary Triumvir. The state is secular, however the Southern Orthodoxy Voltic Church holds significant de facto power within the nation.
The nation is a unicameral with the Senate’s senators voted by the people every 5 years. The Triumvirs are voted by those within the parliament.

Türikhide Politics:

Although the Türikhide government is, fundamentally, based off the current Gudewida government, is has several distinct differences. The country is also a Triumvirate, however run by three Bash with powers far less overreaching than the Gudewidan Triumvirs.. The Legislative Bash, Military Bash, and the Judiciary Bash. All three are equal within the government and voted by the people every 6 years.

The Senate (known within the country as the Reki) is split into the Legislative Reki and the Judiciary Reki, both of which the members are elected every 4 years.

Economy:
Both Gudewida and Türikhide have largely grain-based agricultural economies, although much of Gudewida’s agriculture are dominated by ‘Thidans’, the ex-communist land owners of central and western Gudewida.

Gudewida Culture:
Gudewidans are a fusion of the Germanic Goths and Burgundi cultures with minor Turkish influence (use Burgundi and Burgundian culture over Goths when possible). They follow a sect of Volsci Christianity known as Southern Orthodoxy, although do not subscribe to the Triumvirate-centred philosophies, but do see Burania as the last pure and untainted region after the Great Flood.

Türikhide Culture:
Türikhidens are based off the Turkish people with significant Germanic influence in both the language and the culture. Although the majority of the population is a member of the Southern Orthodoxy of Volsci Christianity, many are rapidly turning towards Midigula, Tengrism, and Atheism and rejecting Southern Orthodoxy as a ‘vestige of oppression’. It is expected by 2030 for the country to no longer be a majority Southern Orthodoxy.

Capital City:
Gudewida = Karthbargs
Türikhide = Chapa – named after the anchor that Noah supposedly threw to the ground when the flood began to recede in the last 7 days of the 40 day flood. Chapa being the location where the anchor’s rope snapped and was left.

Flag Proposals:
Xk2Hmz7.png   Og7rD9Z.png  DBytO9o.png

 

1) Just an updated version of the Karthenian flag
2) A basic tricolour for Türikhide based off the Turikel flag, akin to a Pan-Turik colour scheme.
3) Current Baranchia flag but updated to a better colour scheme to represent the country. The ram is an important symbol to the Kynyk.


2.3.4.6: Republic of Volsci / @Vocenae
Perhaps pinging wasn't such a good idea, Vocenae is like Beetlejuice right? Say his name three times and he'll appear. Anyways his name is remaining as is (Volsci).
“Volsci Republic”
Endonym for Volsci is Volazais, From the old gothic “Volga Saiws”, Volga being an archaic name for the Argis Sea.

Culture:
Gothic-Slavic with some Roman influence, primarily in government.

Capital City:
Falsaims
(“Fawls Haims” “Yellow Farm”).


2.3.4.7: Tal Shiar
Is being renamed to the Socialist Union of Nusisium
From “Niujisbaggwitha” meaning “New Home Village".

Flag Proposals:
04s02XD.png   JZIjHXY.png

1) First flag is based off the flag of Deltannia - due to its shared history with them - with a cross due to its proximity to other Christian nations.
2) The second proposal puts it in line with the other nations around the area like Philippia.


(For future reference this is the point where the forum has started to bug out again - let's hope this post actually goes through!)
2.3.4.8: Empire of @Ide Jima
Is keeping its name and most of its lore, with some minor changes as The Five Houses of Ide Jima.
The exonym "Ide Jima" is a corruption of "Ide Jadoma" which means “Five Houses” in Ide Jiman, from !OldJaponese “Itu Yadom” named after the five mythological ships that made landfall on the continent to settle Europa from what we now know as Alharu.

“Ide” = “Five”
“Jado” = “House”
“-ma” = Pluraliser

Geography
t3OsW3A.png

Due to the historic and modern day importance of the Five Houses of Ide Jima, the country remains heavily regional, with the main power bases being in the southern Imperial Districts around the capital of Mijaqo. The main subcultural divisions can be largely defined by the nation’s isolated north-western mountains, southern agricultural Mediterranean districts, and the now-dead industrial, colder, northern districts.
 

History:
Across its history Ide Jima rose as empires then collapsed back into imperial houses, usually more than five, and was almost always at war with itself. However post-1500s Ide Jima was able to maintain stability and a single unified empire for longer periods of time before collapsing.

In 1800 CE, Ide Jima was one of the great empires of Europa with its influence spanning the Thalassa Ocean, however due to incompetence in leadership, inter-house rivalry, and being overtaken by Orioni as the regional hegemon by the 1930s, the empire subsequently fell into chaos and resulted in The Long War lasting from the 1930s to 1950s, and ultimately leading to the communist takeover of the empire, forming the Worker’s Republic of Ide Jima.

In the late 1980s, economic stagnation, combined with aggression among the general populace towards heavy-handed government control over everyday life resulted in a second – shorter – civil war. General Xiao used the period of unrest to seize power in the capital, whilst in other areas, army units declared martial control. The end of the second civil war resulted in the formation of a Military Junta, with General Xiao at its head and the 5 Houses restored as 10 Imperial Districts.

In 2002, the Heir-Apparent of the old empire’s dynasty, Artakai I, returning from his father’s exile under the request of General Xiao, who personally crowned him the new ‘Emperor of the Five Houses’.

Politics:
Current Ide Jiman aristocracy are divided into two: the Mikode Ipyema (Pre-Socialist Nobility, Mikode for short) and the Barons (Socialist and Post-Socialist Nobility/Oligarchs). Much of the Mikode Ipyema were killed or exiled from Ide Jima under communist rule, resulting in most of the aristocratic power being with the Barons.

Most of the current Mikode are relatives of Artakai I and can only be inherited paternally. Baronhood is often obtained by individuals elevated due to services to the empire or inherited large sums of wealth/land/power from their families under the communist government or just afterwards. In the former example, it is not uncommon for these appointments to be granted posthumously to military figures, as a means of honoring and supporting their family members.

For each Imperial District, a council of Barons and Mikode exist as a form of Oligarchic Democracy.

Economy:
Due to harsh socialist policies in the mid to late 1900s and the current military-heavy autocracy, the economy has been declining since the 70s and has meant the nation has dropped from a wurld-leading power to a second rate regional power in the Orient.

Currently the economic export of Ide Jima are raw materials, primarily forestry and agricultural/crop produce. Although the economy is centered on exploitation of primary resources the economy has seen an upsurge in the growth of large private technological corporations, primarily in engineering, since the mid-2000s Europan Crisis. This has led to many predicting Ide Jima to become an economic rival to the rest of the Orient – especially Orioni – within the next several years.

Culture:
Traditional Ide Jiman religion evolved from a range of animistic beliefs. By 250 BCE, a syncretic system of belief called ‘Midigula’ had emerged, placing emphasis on ancestor and nature worship. Philosophical developments throughout the following centuries resulted in an increasing emphasis being placed on self-betterment and the adoption of ‘ Midigula Kolo’, closely resembling Jaihuian Buddhism by the start of the 20th century.

Religion in Ide Jima was effectively wiped out by the communist government. However since the collapse of the communist government and return of the imperial dynasty, the Imperial Government has taken great efforts to promote a new form of Midigula, ‘ Midigula Piziri’. Midigula Pizili is closely linked with the Imperial Government, and honoring the state is considered by many to be part of an individual’s religious duty. All other religions except Midigula and it’s other forms are the only religions allowed within the state, however growing Amisti and Elitism from Orioni and differing sects of Christianity have begun to creep into the lives of those on the border regions of the nation.

Capital City:
Mijaqo

Flag Proposals:
hkAWXjr.png   g1AQmrR.png   OJNReaz.png   OdJD6fR.png
All the flags have reference to the five houses, although in different ways. The 1st flag has 5 cyan stripes and 5 white stripes for the 5 houses, the second similarly has 5 lines either side of the encircled 5 stars. The third flag is based off a rejected flag for the People's Republic of China - once again with 5 stripes. The last flag uses a different colour palette from the others (which uses the same colours as the current Macau flag Ide Jima ripped) and has a more non-traditional flag shape common in IRL East Asia pre-colonialism.


2.3.4.9: Kingdom of @Jaihu
Is being replaced by the Republic of Inagata
“ina” = rice
“agata” = cultivation field

Geography:
s9SGI0V.png
The country’s climate is largely temperate, with the central valley experiencing more rainfall across the year and where the vast majority of the population resides.

History:
Across history, like its Ide Jiman brothers, Inagata was always unifying and collapsing, however unlike Ide Jima it spent most of its history as separate Ogiwins (comparable to Japanese Daimyo) spread across the central valley and coastline. However by the 1800s Inagata was able to unify into a single kingdom due to pressures from outside forces into the Kingdom of Inagata.

From October 29th, 1992 to the 18th of August 2005, the Kingdom of Inagata was overthrown in a military coup by a coalition of Ogiwins headed by the Jai Ogiwina’s Jai Opuwo due to attempts by the king and the House of Representatives attempting to declaw the military and Ogiwins’ immense power. The Ogiwinaa Jai Opuwo took power of the kingdom, renaming it to the Holy Empire of Jaihu (Jai’s Land in Inagatese) and crowning himself emperor – making him the youngest self-proclaimed emperor in Inagata history at the age of 22.

Jai Opuwo, since his death in 2005 at the age of 35 by multiple gunshots from his generals, has been theorized to possess some form of diagnosed schizophrenia and untreated NPD, which began to manifest some time in his early thirties half way through his initial reign. This has been used to explain some of his odd choices whilst in real and his constant demands for admiration and attention – even threatening neighboring nations with war if they did not respond quickly to his letters and emails. Ultimately Opuwo’s attempt to rename all the different levels of government to his family/Ogiwin name or given name was the straw that broke the military’s back, resulting in the assassination of Opuwo and the subsequent military junta that took over, proclaiming “no royals no longer”.

Politics:
Inagata is an authoritarian military junta with public protests and demonstrations strictly banned by the government. The Inagata generals dictate national laws through the House of Representatives (ironic name) and if a general dies or resigns, their seat is often taken by either ex-noble oligarchs or an individual already groomed to take their position.

There is minimal welfare or support by the government to its people, but it also means that if a rural village or town are not actively resisting rule they do possess a very high degree of autonomy to dictate their local laws.

Economy:
Inagata’s economy has been non-existent since the Jai rule and even since the end of Jaihu the country has remained firmly isolationist, only ever appearing in sports (particularly cricket) and politics. Any excess crops produced by the towns and villages across the country are funneled into the heavily bloated military’s pockets.

Culture:
Primarily Feudal Japanese, original Jaihu, and the DPRK’s more odd sensibilities. A firmly atheistic state that discourages faith and religion, although has not (yet) banned public displays of religion. What remains of the native Inagatan faith is similar to the old Midigula, called Mitegira or Inamitegira.

Capital City:
Ogironiti

Flags:
3Q9lZI4.png  QZgceN2.png  9THyl0a.png
1) Just the Jaihu flag minus the complex symbol. In-lore the current Jaihu flag would be used for when Inagata was under Jai Opuwo rule.
2 & 3) Uses red, the imperial colour of Inagata, and green for the fields, with the endless knot a symbol of current Jaihu.

Generally though I'm not super proud of these flag designs, blame an exhausted brain. Keeping the current flag also works, although we’ll need to check where the flag’s charge comes from.


2.3.4.10: @Mirian Republic
Is keeping it's name as an exonym, the official 'long name' is the Republic of Myrialoyche from Ancient Aroman “Ten thousand Spears” in reference to the large spear armies of classical Myria. The endonym for Myria is Nadee Ganatantr.

Culture:
Northern Ganges Indian

Capital City:
Mahaan Shahar


2.3.4.11: Confederal Republic of @Youtabonia
Is being renamed to the Confederal Republic of Hindisium.

Aaaand that's it for now!- In the near future I will be posted an official response to @Orioni's reply and also some ideas for Amutia. Once again a reminder these are proposals and are not final.

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I've several points but these relate more to history than the nations themselves.

The first is the inclusion of the Thelarike Kingdom in the history of Tal Shiar/Nusisium. That should be totally doable and not impact anything.

The second is the Tagmatine/Vanarambaion campaigns/crusades of the 13th Century. I need to check my own history, which I'm sketching out at the moment. I think certainly the later 13th Century and later involved a period of Tagmatine collapse, precipitated by Akiiryan invasion. We can readily sort out the mechanics of this and how it can tie into a series of crusader states.

Thirdly, which is the somewhat bigger one, is that I want to scrap the Long War as is almost entirely and retool it as a conflict based around the Central Europan Seas, with Tagmatium and Volsci as the main combatants and the surrounding states in coalition with one or the other. With perhaps movement inbetween them. The main motivation for this was that it meant that I'd have control over the participants without stepping on IP, which is admittedly less of an issue now. But also to make Tagmatium more directly in peril at points and have it more reasonably a traumatic event in Tagmatine history. Again, I'm sure we can sort that out.

Fourthly, Volsci as is is explicitly not a Christian state, although vaguely monotheistic and much more aggressive towards Christians, according to the wiki. What's the reasoning behind changing this? I'm just curious.

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On 8/23/2021 at 7:55 AM, Metztlitlaca said:

2.3.4.1: Kingdom of @Koku
Replaced by... Nothing!. Okay not entirely nothing, Koku's culture has been replaced by Alt-Japonic with it's etymology changed to reflect it:
The term ‘koku’ meaning ‘Moss Place’ in Kokese derives from !oldjapanese ‘koke ku’.

Geography
u2NHGj5.png

History / Politics / History

Same as regular Koku

Culture
Based off Japanese with some meta influence from Thai and Manchu.
Religion a mix of Theravada Buddhism and Manchu Shamanism. The elephant is a sacred animal to the Kokese.

Flag Proposals
vzUpR7y.png   7KA0CEW.png   tofdXLR.png

I know I'm not in Europa, but as a native speaker of Japanese may I make a suggestion? Specifically regarding the etymology.

While having it derive from !oldJapanese "koke ku" is not a bad idea, I presume that in kanji that would be written "苔区". The use of "区" to denote a political division is actually a relatively modern phenomenon (mostly done after the Meiji Restoration), so applying this to history wouldn't work very well.

However, there is an alternative that works.

Historically, the term "kuni" (国) was used to denote provinces of Japan. These provinces were important even during the time the Han-system (Han is a term for a domain of a feudal lord) existed.

So what you could have instead is the name be derived from "koke no kuni" (苔の国), with it being shortened to "Koke kuni" (苔国) at some point, and then maybe the word "kuni" dropped the "ni" at some point in the language making the name "koke-ku" and then eventually being shortened even more to "Koku" (probably still written 苔国, assuming you still want to use the same Japanese writing system).

Just an idea that I thought I'd throw out there.

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  • 2 weeks later...

2.3.3 Islam / Salam — Since I'm playing a non-islamic nation this doesn't affect me. In this case it's up to the player who do to figure this out on their own. I had created a setup with Salam, but there seems to be rather little enthousiasm to adopt this. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Salam

2.3.4.1 Koku — Nice to see our old spam-king remain. I agree that the lore can be better if mixed with the other locals. Flag with the elephant matches the overall theme. I may have gone a bit overboard with the elephant references. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Koku

2.3.4.2 Mongol Swedes / Turikel — Ah yes the obvious !Mongol culture. Fitting in such a culture was always tricking. They're wedged in between Scandinavians (Deltannia), Asians (Orient), and Latin (Amutia). While I recognise that the Khanate of Turikel can be a historic late-Mediaval nation, I doubt it would survive into the 21st Century. ➡️ Which form of government would be present today: monarchy, republic, far-left or far-right?  I also expect some influences from neighbouring Volsci, Vetok and Akiiryu. For example: on the Deltannia page I wrote about Volsci expansionism. Perhaps this also involved puppeting parts of Mongol Swedes / Turikel? https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Deltannia#History The 3rd flag with the stars looks very nice, but the symbol can be adapted depending on the form of government.

2.3.4.3 Qardania / Dolet — Looks alright. I'd use the non-cross flag because that looks rather odd in !Asia.

2.3.4.4 Vetok / Ouzoia — Nice. I'd pick neither flag as it should probably see some influences from being a "holy republic" with an old emperor and !Turkic culture. Maybe also something to symbolise the break-up with Mongol Swedes / Turikel.

2.3.4.5 Karthenia & Branchia — Can also be merged into 1 country. That would mean less lore to figure out. Flag 1 with the ram is nice.

2.3.4.6 Volsci — What's wrong with the current capital, Antium? https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Volsci

2.3.4.7 Tal Shiar / Nusisium — Unsure if there should be socialism here. I'd expect some religious influence from nearby @Tagmatium Rules. That 2nd flag looks dope.

2.3.4.8 Ide Jima — Nice expansion of the history. 2nd or 3rd flag do it for me.

2.3.4.9 Jaihu / Inagata — This name wouldn't take too much to update. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Jaihu If there' a military junta in power, the flag probably needs either (1) a big star in the middle (unity) to highlight the break with the past, or (2) hang on to the old symbols to claim fake continuity and prevent civil uprisings.

2.3.4.10 Mirian Republic / Myrialoyche — Nice one. I like that name, “Ten thousand Spears”. That'd stop the Aroman expansion dead in its tracks. The lore is still empty so easy to replace. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Mirian_Republic The country could also be merged into the next one to have less work with the lore. It always looked weird to have that river delta split.

2.3.4.11 Youtabonia / Hindisium — Weird name. Can we give this one another go? Also, the existing lore mentions Christian intervention which is too far east for the time. It think the Aroman advance halted somewhere around Lysia or Montgisard. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Youtabonia

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All noted!. 

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2.2. Lore continuity. Some of it can be explained by having cultures evolve in the New Wurld and scrapping the Europan ancestors, for example Dravidian. Mind that the New Wurld also has its quirks with two !Asian clusters on the eastern side (Yeosan, Rhava, Kertosono, Utogo) and western side (SSI, Andalla, Yeosan, Heiheguo, ex-Selayar, ex-Fjallshima). For this part I have to agree with what @Haruspex wrote in Discord: "[...] why is there a need to draw heavily to essentially mirror IRL with Europa/New Wurld? Isnt the nations that compose the two continents what makes the region, not the culture mirror to RL?"

2.3 Fixing the lore. To be complete I'll also include the other options mentioned on Discord last July. Back then I already concluded that: "Neither of these are interesting."
Solution 6: nuke the culture map and let everyone new players settle everywhere regardless of where their culture fits in.
Solution 7: switch some the New Wurld nations so they're on the 'correct' side of their continents.

So in general I am for moving the Dravidians either to just Europa or just Eurth - currently there are no members and if O is okay with future members being placed in Oriental Europa if they are Dravidian or Indo-Aryan w/o being colonies, I'm 100% fine with this.

"[...] why is there a need to draw heavily to essentially mirror IRL with Europa/New Wurld? Isnt the nations that compose the two continents what makes the region, not the culture mirror to RL?"
This I 100% agree with. Perhaps I've not been explicit enough with what I'm trying to do here. The last thing I want to do is make Eurth Eurth, that would be boring. That's why I've been particularly apathetic about Islam/Salam in the Sub-Saharan countries or moving the Aroman-Descendants out of the Amutia Desert. My goal, hopefully with the aid of staff and the members of Eurth, is to find the reasons why these differences exist and expand upon them to their fullest potential. Not get rid of them.

For example, 
"the New Wurld also has its quirks with two !Asian clusters on the eastern side (Yeosan, Rhava, Kertosono, Utogo) and western side (SSI, Andalla, Yeosan, Heiheguo, ex-Selayar, ex-Fjallshima)."
We can find reasons for this, and not have to move unwilling members. My own idea is that the Paran goes through stages of being a large habitable steppe and a desert, that's why the Paran in the present day is half desert half hot steppe - it's in transition from a greener Paran to a more Sahara-like environment. And I've used this idea and tied it to my own lore - it's why the Azlo (!Aztec) people left the rest of the Ute-Aztecan people around the Chenshas area and went south, to greener pastures. When the Paran was in one of it's greener states, the !East Asian / !South-East Asian ethnic cluster covered all of middle-Alharu. Then when the Paran became a desert the two groups became separated and several of these groups on the western side migrated out into Thalassa when the !Egyptians (Cashar/Hemahat) migrated south into the Ketek area.

Turning !East Asian in Europa into a !Japanonic region (more than just Japanese) was as an emphasis of this, as if the !Japonic people that migrated to Andalla and the Esonya islands continued west across the Thalassa Islands. We can also add a branch of the !South-East Asians into this for SSI, San Ba, etc. Which appears to be Vietnamese.

Deletion should be only be our last choice, adaption is far simpler and more fun in the long-term.
 

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2.4 Connections to the Rest of Eurth. A difficult piece of the puzzle. This part I don't quite follow. As I read it, the problem involves Romance nations' cultural connections and realism, and the proposed solution is to move them further towards the Equator. If Lysia needs to connect to an ocean, they could be giving a northern coastline, yes?

As written, "Phase 2.4 – Connections to the Rest of Eurth" is just meant to be any plotholes in our lore with our attempts to remerge Europa back into the greater Eurth lore. The biggest being Lysia is nearly landlocked. To get out of Europa and form colonies it must past:
- Akiiryu
- Iverican Ancestor (who has similar issues)
- Qubdi
- Euandria
- Sporsia
- Tagmatium
- Vanamrambaion
- Havebergen
- Tal Shiar
- The 7 islands
- Akwisia
- Haruspex

If just one of these countries declined transit, Lysia could not form any meaningful colonies. It's why the Ottomans never made any colonies in the new wurld, or why Russia could never project real power into the Atlantic, or why China has never breached into the pacific until the advent of global trade. Lysia has the problems they all had but 10x worse. The idea is to move Lysia, the Iverican Ancestor state, and the other colonies further south to break free of their geographic constraints. Two solutions I have already drawn up previously in this thread.

And even with the proposals above the master colonisers are still quite separate from their colonies in Alharu/Aurelia/Argis - which we can use as an excuse, plus greater connections by the natives, why colonialism on Eurth is far weaker than it was on Eurth.
 

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The first is the inclusion of the Thelarike Kingdom in the history of Tal Shiar/Nusisium. That should be totally doable and not impact anything.

I think this would be great to keep 😄, thank you for bringing this to my attention @Tagmatium Rules. Perhaps it could be used as stand-in for our Viking era, not counting Ulfheimr and Ateenia raiders. With permissions from @Prymont / @Ateenia, Thelarike could be an ancient Argic Ocean empire as some sort of super North Sea Empire.
 

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The second is the Tagmatine/Vanarambaion campaigns/crusades of the 13th Century. I need to check my own history, which I'm sketching out at the moment. I think certainly the later 13th Century and later involved a period of Tagmatine collapse, precipitated by Akiiryan invasion. We can readily sort out the mechanics of this and how it can tie into a series of crusader states.

👍
 

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Thirdly, which is the somewhat bigger one, is that I want to scrap the Long War as is almost entirely and retool it as a conflict based around the Central Europan Seas, with Tagmatium and Volsci as the main combatants and the surrounding states in coalition with one or the other. With perhaps movement inbetween them. The main motivation for this was that it meant that I'd have control over the participants without stepping on IP, which is admittedly less of an issue now. But also to make Tagmatium more directly in peril at points and have it more reasonably a traumatic event in Tagmatine history. Again, I'm sure we can sort that out.

Do you know how this would affect nations such as Ide Jima? Should we keep their current lore (which was adapted into this new version of Ide Jima) or try come up with something new?. Also something perhaps @Orioni should chime on as the Long War is quite close to his turf.
 

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Fourthly, Volsci as is is explicitly not a Christian state, although vaguely monotheistic and much more aggressive towards Christians, according to the wiki. What's the reasoning behind changing this? I'm just curious.

Whoops!- My mistake, I mistook this:
"The Triumvirate follows a fanatical doctrine that seeks to control the Eurth and the fate of mankind. Central to their belief system is the strong monotheistic worship of the God of the Abrahamic religious tradition. According to Triumvirate's core belief, the Eurth was last pure and untainted after God cleansed it in the Biblical Great Flood endured by Noah, which they claimed to have occurred around 8,000 years ago. Since then, the Eurth became consumed by chaos and sin. And only the Triumvirate has received God's divine command to restore humanity to paradise."
To mean Christian, but after a second time reading I do realise that Volsci's religion is an Abrahamic faith, but not a Christian faith. Noted!
 

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I know I'm not in Europa, but as a native speaker of Japanese may I make a suggestion? Specifically regarding the etymology.

While having it derive from !oldJapanese "koke ku" is not a bad idea, I presume that in kanji that would be written "苔区". The use of "区" to denote a political division is actually a relatively modern phenomenon (mostly done after the Meiji Restoration), so applying this to history wouldn't work very well.

However, there is an alternative that works.

Historically, the term "kuni" (国) was used to denote provinces of Japan. These provinces were important even during the time the Han-system (Han is a term for a domain of a feudal lord) existed.

So what you could have instead is the name be derived from "koke no kuni" (苔の国), with it being shortened to "Koke kuni" (苔国) at some point, and then maybe the word "kuni" dropped the "ni" at some point in the language making the name "koke-ku" and then eventually being shortened even more to "Koku" (probably still written 苔国, assuming you still want to use the same Japanese writing system).

Just an idea that I thought I'd throw out there.

Thank you @Volta. This works much better.

 

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2.3.3 Islam / Salam — Since I'm playing a non-islamic nation this doesn't affect me. In this case it's up to the player who do to figure this out on their own. I had created a setup with Salam, but there seems to be rather little enthousiasm to adopt this. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Salam

I like the idea of Salam, but perhaps it could be adapted in a way less blunt. Taking a page from Christianity on Eurth;

This is a map of Islam on Eurth pre-Azanian Reboot. Dark Green are nations I know are Islamic / Major minorities of Muslims / Were or had Muslims in the past. ( @Esonice and his San Castellino refugees not pictured here.). Light Green I'm unsure of.
lb5LurN.png

It's primarily found in Europa and Alharu, fascinatingly lets look at the sects:
zuwzqGl.png
Red are Twelver Shias, Blue are Ismaili Shias. The New Wurld is almost entirely Shia Muslims. Europa/Yellow is Salamic, @Orioni's attempt at a rebranded Islam which I will assume are Sunni as that's the sect of Islam most Westerners know and think about (outside of the stereotypically racist idea that all Muslims are Wahhabis). There are several things we can do with this;

A: Islamic Europa Homeland
That the Shia Muslims fled from the Sunni-Dominated Europa and made their way to Europa. This I think was the original idea with Sayf before northern Alharu / Paran was rebranded as the homeland of the Afro-Asiatic people. However this might not work depending on the individual lores of @Fulgistan / @Sayf / @Rhava / etc.

B: Islamic Alharu Homeland
That Islam began in Alharu. This would work a lot better for Alharu and the Paran, lore-wise, and it unloads some of the lore from Europa. However this leaves the giant yellow blob of Salam, which can be dealt with in a couple ways. 
Azania has already been rebooted, with many of the Subsaharan states been given a homebrewed religion of Inkolo. This just leaves Qubdi, Arrif, Assurym, and Asmeruwah as Salamic states. Now we could just leave them as is, and let Sunni Islam dominate in that area under Salam, however with these 3 countries coming under the chopping block soon when we reach Amutia for changes, I think we can do something a lot more fun;

Salam as it's own Abrahamic Faith.
A religion that, like Christianity, broke off from Judaism. But being a religion primarily found in the Amutia Steppe, it's just as unique as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. We can then expand this new religion into Yuropa and the northern northern Azanian states. This would allow us to have our cake and eat it too, with neither lores in Europa or Alharu contradicting each other. However doing so would require Bashan to remain in Europa, which is fine if we don't mind the plot hole that a single Afro-Asiatic group popped up in Europa, with all the others in Alharu

Perhaps the !Canaanites migrated into the Aroman Empire, and founded their own kingdoms post-collapse, with Bashan, Qubdi, Arrif, Assurym, and Asmeruwah being their present day descendants? Could also be the people who brought the Alphabet to Europa. Up to @Gallambria and @Tagmatium Rules to decide that.

lHAtowh.png

(Sorry I offended you through my stupidly-simplified diagram of Religions)

If this was done, the name would have to be changed - something in Hebrew or the other Canaanite languages.

 

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2.3.4.2 Mongol Swedes / Turikel — Ah yes the obvious !Mongol culture. Fitting in such a culture was always tricking. They're wedged in between Scandinavians (Deltannia), Asians (Orient), and Latin (Amutia). While I recognise that the Khanate of Turikel can be a historic late-Mediaval nation, I doubt it would survive into the 21st Century.  Which form of government would be present today: monarchy, republic, far-left or far-right?  I also expect some influences from neighbouring Volsci, Vetok and Akiiryu. For example: on the Deltannia page I wrote about Volsci expansionism. Perhaps this also involved puppeting parts of Mongol Swedes / Turikel? https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Deltannia#History The 3rd flag with the stars looks very nice, but the symbol can be adapted depending on the form of government.

Why couldn't a reformed Khanate survive into the present? Empires and Kingdoms have - especially on Eurth. Even so in the lore I wrote there is this;
"With such a humiliating defeat, many other Turikelian tribes within the khanate demanded independence. To avoid complete collapse the Turikel Khanate reorganised itself into a tribal federation in the 80s and began the process of moving funds from the military towards economic growth and diversification.". Turikel is a federation by the modern day after it's flirt with death.

"I also expect some influences from neighbouring Volsci, Vetok and Akiiryu. For example: on the Deltannia page I wrote about Volsci expansionism."
This was somewhat done with "But with the arrival of gunpowder in the mid to late 1200s resulted in modern day Turikel and other neighbouring semi-nomads to being conquered by their neighbours. The area of what became modern day Turikel was conquered by Volsci, with other Turik people around Burania being conquered by Aroman-Descendent crusaders, Oriental Empires, and the northern Germanic people.". There was also the agreement when we were making the culture map for Europa that there were significant Turkic groups within Volsci, which have been linked to this expansion. Also the Sved Taypa of Turikel is Germanic in nature - a nod to the Swedes in Mongol-Swedes :P.

However if you want more overt influence, that can be done - perhaps their current reformed government could take some cues from the Volsci Empire.
 

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2.3.4.6 Volsci — What's wrong with the current capital, Antium? https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Volsci

Volsci, from what I've read, is meant to be a nation directly opposed to the institutions of Aroma, so having a capital named in the same way as the cities of Tagmatium and friends seemed counter-intuitive. Which I wanted to reinforce in their capital's name. I would also go as far as to suggest replacing Volsci's triumvirate with a Folkmoot. Of course this can be reversed if you'd rather keep Volsci as close to it's current form as possible.
 

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2.3.4.7 Tal Shiar / Nusisium — Unsure if there should be socialism here. I'd expect some religious influence from nearby @Tagmatium Rules. That 2nd flag looks dope.

https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Tal_Shiar. Though perhaps this is something @Tagmatium Rules should decide, not us.

 

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2.3.4.10 Mirian Republic / Myrialoyche — Nice one. I like that name, “Ten thousand Spears”. That'd stop the Aroman expansion dead in its tracks. The lore is still empty so easy to replace. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Mirian_Republic The country could also be merged into the next one to have less work with the lore. It always looked weird to have that river delta split.

2.3.4.11 Youtabonia / Hindisium — Weird name. Can we give this one another go? Also, the existing lore mentions Christian intervention which is too far east for the time. It think the Aroman advance halted somewhere around Lysia or Montgisard. https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Youtabonia

I would have to agree with you, I wasn't particularly happy with the renaming of Youtabonia either and merging it with Myria might be the better move.
Any other opinions/critique made that I haven't replied to is most likely because I agree with it and/or I have nothing to say to it.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/5/2021 at 2:47 PM, Metztlitlaca said:

All noted!. 

So in general I am for moving the Dravidians either to just Europa or just Eurth - currently there are no members and if O is okay with future members being placed in Oriental Europa if they are Dravidian or Indo-Aryan w/o being colonies, I'm 100% fine with this.

"[...] why is there a need to draw heavily to essentially mirror IRL with Europa/New Wurld? Isnt the nations that compose the two continents what makes the region, not the culture mirror to RL?"
This I 100% agree with. Perhaps I've not been explicit enough with what I'm trying to do here. The last thing I want to do is make Eurth Eurth, that would be boring. That's why I've been particularly apathetic about Islam/Salam in the Sub-Saharan countries or moving the Aroman-Descendants out of the Amutia Desert. My goal, hopefully with the aid of staff and the members of Eurth, is to find the reasons why these differences exist and expand upon them to their fullest potential. Not get rid of them.

For example, 
"the New Wurld also has its quirks with two !Asian clusters on the eastern side (Yeosan, Rhava, Kertosono, Utogo) and western side (SSI, Andalla, Yeosan, Heiheguo, ex-Selayar, ex-Fjallshima)."
We can find reasons for this, and not have to move unwilling members. My own idea is that the Paran goes through stages of being a large habitable steppe and a desert, that's why the Paran in the present day is half desert half hot steppe - it's in transition from a greener Paran to a more Sahara-like environment. And I've used this idea and tied it to my own lore - it's why the Azlo (!Aztec) people left the rest of the Ute-Aztecan people around the Chenshas area and went south, to greener pastures. When the Paran was in one of it's greener states, the !East Asian / !South-East Asian ethnic cluster covered all of middle-Alharu. Then when the Paran became a desert the two groups became separated and several of these groups on the western side migrated out into Thalassa when the !Egyptians (Cashar/Hemahat) migrated south into the Ketek area.

Turning !East Asian in Europa into a !Japanonic region (more than just Japanese) was as an emphasis of this, as if the !Japonic people that migrated to Andalla and the Esonya islands continued west across the Thalassa Islands. We can also add a branch of the !South-East Asians into this for SSI, San Ba, etc. Which appears to be Vietnamese.

Deletion should be only be our last choice, adaption is far simpler and more fun in the long-term.
 

As written, "Phase 2.4 – Connections to the Rest of Eurth" is just meant to be any plotholes in our lore with our attempts to remerge Europa back into the greater Eurth lore. The biggest being Lysia is nearly landlocked. To get out of Europa and form colonies it must past:
- Akiiryu
- Iverican Ancestor (who has similar issues)
- Qubdi
- Euandria
- Sporsia
- Tagmatium
- Vanamrambaion
- Havebergen
- Tal Shiar
- The 7 islands
- Akwisia
- Haruspex

If just one of these countries declined transit, Lysia could not form any meaningful colonies. It's why the Ottomans never made any colonies in the new wurld, or why Russia could never project real power into the Atlantic, or why China has never breached into the pacific until the advent of global trade. Lysia has the problems they all had but 10x worse. The idea is to move Lysia, the Iverican Ancestor state, and the other colonies further south to break free of their geographic constraints. Two solutions I have already drawn up previously in this thread.

And even with the proposals above the master colonisers are still quite separate from their colonies in Alharu/Aurelia/Argis - which we can use as an excuse, plus greater connections by the natives, why colonialism on Eurth is far weaker than it was on Eurth.
 

I think this would be great to keep 😄, thank you for bringing this to my attention @Tagmatium Rules. Perhaps it could be used as stand-in for our Viking era, not counting Ulfheimr and Ateenia raiders. With permissions from @Prymont / @Ateenia, Thelarike could be an ancient Argic Ocean empire as some sort of super North Sea Empire.
 

👍
 

Do you know how this would affect nations such as Ide Jima? Should we keep their current lore (which was adapted into this new version of Ide Jima) or try come up with something new?. Also something perhaps @Orioni should chime on as the Long War is quite close to his turf.
 

Whoops!- My mistake, I mistook this:
"The Triumvirate follows a fanatical doctrine that seeks to control the Eurth and the fate of mankind. Central to their belief system is the strong monotheistic worship of the God of the Abrahamic religious tradition. According to Triumvirate's core belief, the Eurth was last pure and untainted after God cleansed it in the Biblical Great Flood endured by Noah, which they claimed to have occurred around 8,000 years ago. Since then, the Eurth became consumed by chaos and sin. And only the Triumvirate has received God's divine command to restore humanity to paradise."
To mean Christian, but after a second time reading I do realise that Volsci's religion is an Abrahamic faith, but not a Christian faith. Noted!
 

Thank you @Volta. This works much better.

 

I like the idea of Salam, but perhaps it could be adapted in a way less blunt. Taking a page from Christianity on Eurth;

This is a map of Islam on Eurth pre-Azanian Reboot. Dark Green are nations I know are Islamic / Major minorities of Muslims / Were or had Muslims in the past. ( @Esonice and his San Castellino refugees not pictured here.). Light Green I'm unsure of.
lb5LurN.png

It's primarily found in Europa and Alharu, fascinatingly lets look at the sects:
zuwzqGl.png
Red are Twelver Shias, Blue are Ismaili Shias. The New Wurld is almost entirely Shia Muslims. Europa/Yellow is Salamic, @Orioni's attempt at a rebranded Islam which I will assume are Sunni as that's the sect of Islam most Westerners know and think about (outside of the stereotypically racist idea that all Muslims are Wahhabis). There are several things we can do with this;

A: Islamic Europa Homeland
That the Shia Muslims fled from the Sunni-Dominated Europa and made their way to Europa. This I think was the original idea with Sayf before northern Alharu / Paran was rebranded as the homeland of the Afro-Asiatic people. However this might not work depending on the individual lores of @Fulgistan / @Sayf / @Rhava / etc.

B: Islamic Alharu Homeland
That Islam began in Alharu. This would work a lot better for Alharu and the Paran, lore-wise, and it unloads some of the lore from Europa. However this leaves the giant yellow blob of Salam, which can be dealt with in a couple ways. 
Azania has already been rebooted, with many of the Subsaharan states been given a homebrewed religion of Inkolo. This just leaves Qubdi, Arrif, Assurym, and Asmeruwah as Salamic states. Now we could just leave them as is, and let Sunni Islam dominate in that area under Salam, however with these 3 countries coming under the chopping block soon when we reach Amutia for changes, I think we can do something a lot more fun;

Salam as it's own Abrahamic Faith.
A religion that, like Christianity, broke off from Judaism. But being a religion primarily found in the Amutia Steppe, it's just as unique as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. We can then expand this new religion into Yuropa and the northern northern Azanian states. This would allow us to have our cake and eat it too, with neither lores in Europa or Alharu contradicting each other. However doing so would require Bashan to remain in Europa, which is fine if we don't mind the plot hole that a single Afro-Asiatic group popped up in Europa, with all the others in Alharu

Perhaps the !Canaanites migrated into the Aroman Empire, and founded their own kingdoms post-collapse, with Bashan, Qubdi, Arrif, Assurym, and Asmeruwah being their present day descendants? Could also be the people who brought the Alphabet to Europa. Up to @Gallambria and @Tagmatium Rules to decide that.

lHAtowh.png

(Sorry I offended you through my stupidly-simplified diagram of Religions)

If this was done, the name would have to be changed - something in Hebrew or the other Canaanite languages.

 

Why couldn't a reformed Khanate survive into the present? Empires and Kingdoms have - especially on Eurth. Even so in the lore I wrote there is this;
"With such a humiliating defeat, many other Turikelian tribes within the khanate demanded independence. To avoid complete collapse the Turikel Khanate reorganised itself into a tribal federation in the 80s and began the process of moving funds from the military towards economic growth and diversification.". Turikel is a federation by the modern day after it's flirt with death.

"I also expect some influences from neighbouring Volsci, Vetok and Akiiryu. For example: on the Deltannia page I wrote about Volsci expansionism."
This was somewhat done with "But with the arrival of gunpowder in the mid to late 1200s resulted in modern day Turikel and other neighbouring semi-nomads to being conquered by their neighbours. The area of what became modern day Turikel was conquered by Volsci, with other Turik people around Burania being conquered by Aroman-Descendent crusaders, Oriental Empires, and the northern Germanic people.". There was also the agreement when we were making the culture map for Europa that there were significant Turkic groups within Volsci, which have been linked to this expansion. Also the Sved Taypa of Turikel is Germanic in nature - a nod to the Swedes in Mongol-Swedes :P.

However if you want more overt influence, that can be done - perhaps their current reformed government could take some cues from the Volsci Empire.
 

Volsci, from what I've read, is meant to be a nation directly opposed to the institutions of Aroma, so having a capital named in the same way as the cities of Tagmatium and friends seemed counter-intuitive. Which I wanted to reinforce in their capital's name. I would also go as far as to suggest replacing Volsci's triumvirate with a Folkmoot. Of course this can be reversed if you'd rather keep Volsci as close to it's current form as possible.
 

https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Tal_Shiar. Though perhaps this is something @Tagmatium Rules should decide, not us.

 

I would have to agree with you, I wasn't particularly happy with the renaming of Youtabonia either and merging it with Myria might be the better move.
Any other opinions/critique made that I haven't replied to is most likely because I agree with it and/or I have nothing to say to it.

I'll admit that the Long War thing is a bit of a ballache.

In its original form, it was a fumbling and now embarrassing RP that was probably far too large in scope for us to do, back in like 2000s. And probably even now. It never got where it was meant to go and makes a lot more sense in the context of the map looking like it did back then. For instance, Adaptus was nowhere near Tagmatium, so the interactions in that thread are a bit wonky, I think. My attempt to recast it as more of a Central Europan Seas war was to make it more relevant and easily steerable for me, since going all the way around the north of Europa made a lot less sense in the more modern context of our new map, as well as Communism being much less of a threat, and to also give the ongoing hostility between Arome/Volsci a more modern historical context. The flashpoint of the Hexanesa would provide a reason for them to go to war and it'd then pull in the various other powers in the area.

It was also going to avoid hijacking IP, after the unpleasantness that involved a likely fanciful threat to sue.

But since we've kind of moved beyond that, I'm not sure where it stands. I realise @Orioni said that he needs it for his own lore on that side of the continent but I'm just not sure that some large conflict that looks like a beefed-up version of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War works for me so much any more.

As an aside, on the IIWiki page for Qubdi, the country is listed as "largely Coptic Christian, mixed with local worship and Salamic influences", which I've taken to mean as being majority Christian. That doesn't necessarily erode the idea that it has a "Salamic" sect of Islam there, just that it wouldn't be the majority religion of the country.

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On 9/28/2021 at 1:30 AM, Metztlitlaca said:

Draft 5.4.1. Due to delays outside of my control, Update 5.4 will largely consist of guideline changes rather than substantial map updates.
5.4.2 will come packaged with how to apply for NPCs outside of expansions, the difference between regular NPCs and expansion NPCs, and what bonuses new members will get for allowing their country to be landlocked. All of this has been discussed in a staff meeting previously, so expect for it to come sooner rather than later (hopefully).

5.4.1 Map
9MtXOrS.jpg


Nations Modified:
● The second Europa V5 group of nations - Burania and the northern Orient - have been converted to their new NPC forms.
   ● @Mirian Republic and @Youtabonia have been merged into Mirialoyche - Miria is still the official short name for the nation.
   ● @Koku and @Ide Jima had flags that were ripped from historical or modern nations/regions, thus their flags were changed.
   ● @Jaihu was converted into Inagata
   ● @Qardania was converted into Dolet
   ● Karthenia and Baranchia were merged into Gudewida
   ● Vetok and @Phil VII were converted into Ouzoia
   ● @Mongol-Swedes was converted into Turikel
   ● @Tal Shiar was converted into Nusisium
● Added @Rhava's river and lake as well as the moved cities.

Nations Added:
@Fina
@Walneria's NPC Dazhdinia
All other NPC requests have been frozen until 5.4.2

Note 1: Anglia's recent take over of Azania has not yet been visualised on the map - largely because the exact borders are not yet known.
Note 2: After the Burania and northern Oriental states have been finalised, we shall be moving onto Amutia: @Cristina, @Tagmatium Rules, @Orioni, if you believe you have information you deem critical to maintaining Amutia's identity and lore (such as key historic moments, lore-important nations, etc.), please reply to [This Thread]. Ex-colonies of Amutia ( @Iverica, @Anatea, @Fravina, and more) your input regarding your exact lore connections would also be incredibly useful as well. This would also be an excellent time to submit possible retcons you wish to make to your own lore, and help create new colonial powers that accommodate for this change.
Note 3: A more user-friendly culture map is in the works, one that doesn't require the use of colour, and would hopefully be a more use than the current one.
Note 4: The next V5 Continental discussion will be Alharu, on the subject of climate and interconnected lore.
Note 5: After the V5 Alharu discussion, Argis will be next. This will be on the subject of missing Germanic and Slavic colonial powers (e.g. the Dutch) and shared NPCs. After Argis will be Marenesia and Antargis - just a check up and a summary of recent events and any NPCs/borders important to the continent(s) that need to be shown. Then the V5 continental discussion threads will be complete. However they will remain open in case anyone from anywhere on Eurth comes up with interesting ideas for the continent(s) as a whole.


[Aurelia V5]
[Europa V5]
[Alharu V5]
[Argis V5]
[Marenesia V5]
[Antargis V5]

 

Yes to anyone who noticed - this map doesn't have a "Draft 5.4.1" label. I've noticed that people often ask for a non-watermarked version anyways and the likelihood that a draft is accidentally posted instead of the real map is very unlikely nowadays. So I feel safe enough to end the practise of watermarking drafts. All I ask is that you only use drafts for your own personal use and not uploaded onto IIwiki or the forum in any capacity outside of aiding in further map updates.

Here i am! :D sorry for the delay!
About the Amutia thing you spoke the other day, i have to say that i don't know if i can say anything because Anatea is an ex-Mantellan colony (i wrote it even in my wiki and decided with Cristina and Orioni), not Amutian :'D unless you want to change Mantella in something else :'D

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4 hours ago, Anatea said:

Here i am! :D sorry for the delay!
About the Amutia thing you spoke the other day, i have to say that i don't know if i can say anything because Anatea is an ex-Mantellan colony (i wrote it even in my wiki and decided with Cristina and Orioni), not Amutian :'D unless you want to change Mantella in something else :'D

Amutia is a subcontinent of Europa, it makes up this area of Europa:
unknown.png

Mantella is a part of the subcontinent of Amutia on the continent of Europa :).
This V5 Europa Discussion Thread, primarily focused on the altering of dead member nations into new NPCs that can be used freely by the community, has been done sub-continent by sub-continent. First Amutia, then Burania and northern Orient, now we are focusing on Amutia and southern Orient.

My question was, as you are an ex-colony of an Amutian nation (Mantella), is there any parts of Mantella's lore critical to maintain your own lore.
Though as Mantella is owned by @Cristina Mantella themselves would see little change unless Cristina wants changes.

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7 hours ago, Metztlitlaca said:

Amutia is a subcontinent of Europa, it makes up this area of Europa:
unknown.png

Mantella is a part of the subcontinent of Amutia on the continent of Europa :).
This V5 Europa Discussion Thread, primarily focused on the altering of dead member nations into new NPCs that can be used freely by the community, has been done sub-continent by sub-continent. First Amutia, then Burania and northern Orient, now we are focusing on Amutia and southern Orient.

My question was, as you are an ex-colony of an Amutian nation (Mantella), is there any parts of Mantella's lore critical to maintain your own lore.
Though as Mantella is owned by @Cristina Mantella themselves would see little change unless Cristina wants changes.

Oof, super sorry, my bad :'D i didn't know that, thank you for your clarification! :D
Anyway yeah, the fact that Mantella sailed to the new wurld to colonize it, giving birth to Anatea, and even the series of wars that had with Cristina because that will help the Anatean rebels to rebel easily to the Mantellan control :'D those are the most important points that are vital for the history of Anatea :D

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      Relationship Development:
      One of the main goals of this organisation would be to help foster better relations among the Dolchic nations of the wurld, along with acting as an outlet by which Dolchic nations can present grievances between each other in order to prevent any type of escalation, allowing potential agreements between each other to be created in order to further these relationships between Dolchic nations, and encouraging Dolchic nations to be more open with one another given their shared culture.
      Trade and Economics:
      As previously stated, this potential organisation would help to promote more trade and commerce between Dolchic nations of the wurld. Such examples of this might be lower tariffs, cheaper resources, or potentially giving more access to the establishment and expansion of Dolchic companies across Dolchic nations. With this being said, I do believe that the organisation would place certain restrictions on what can be traded and what cannot (i.e. No other Dolchic nations sending military equipment to more authoritarian nations such as Dolchland and Velaheria).
      Cultural Exchange:
      Again, as stated in the preface, one of this organisation's main goals would be to promote Dolchic culture not only within other Dolchic nations, but also throughout the entire wurld. Such examples of this would potentially include cultural exchanges between various Dolchic nations, linguistic conferences, etc.
      Research and Development:
      Similar to Esonice's idea of a Partnership of Island Nations, I also think there could be potential for scientific development and research to take place among the organisation's members. Similar to trade though, this would be limited due to the authoritarian nature of governments, and would probably only be focused on non-military/weapons related discoveries, such as in the field of education, medicine, and commercial technology, allowing members of this organisation to develop their nations further to improver their citizens' lives.
      Conclusion:
      Currently, this is as far as my ideas for this organisation go, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be subject to development/change in the future. Furthermore, if you have anymore ideas of what this organisation could contain (members or goals), could be, or could do, please share them with me as I'm looking to expand this idea further. Also, as said before, if such an organisation couldn't be create now, then I would very much like for it to be possible for it to be created at a later future date. Thanks.
    • By Walneria
      Hello, it's me again!
      I have receltly created templates, that link IIWiki page to NationStates page and I realized, that I could possibly create a similar system for this forum.
      The currently working templates I created for NS are {{NSD}} (links to NationStates dispatch), {{NSF}} (links to NationStates factbook), {{NSN}} (links to NationStates nation), {{NSNFlag}} (links to NationStates nation and puts a flag in front of it), {{NSNFlagIcon}} (creates a flag icon that redirects to NationStates nation), {{NSR}} (links to NationStates region), {{NSRFlag}} (links to NationStates region and puts a flag in front of it), {{NSRFlagIcon}} (creates a flag icon that redirects to NationStates region), {{NSColor}} (colors the text by the NS link color) and {{NSRColor}} (colors the text by the NS region link color).
      I was thinking I could create something like a {{EUN}} (for nation link), {{EUNFlag}} (for link with a flag), {{EUNFlagIcon}} (for redirecting icon), {{EUT}} (for redirects to a forum topic), {{EUC}} (redirects to a specific comment in the forum topic), {{EUF}} (for forum link), {{EUFFlag}} (for forum link with a flag, in case of linking to international organizations), {{EUFFlagIcon}} (for forum links hidden in a image icon) and maybe {{EUN}} (redirects to the newsfeed). Would anybody be interested here for such a thing? I feel like it would make the life for linking things way easier, as some of the posts here are comprehensive and do not require a IIWiki counterpart.
      Please let me know your toughts.
    • By Volta
      It was a bright and sunny day. With perfect visibility and calm winds, you couldn't possibly have a better day for a flight. And yet, for the crew and passengers of Voltan Airways Flight 444, something went wrong. Could it be a mechanical failure? Or, perhaps, something much more nefarious...
      Or at least, that's how the opening sequence would go if this was an episode of Air Crash Investigations (Mayday, if you're American).
      THE IDEA
      So, there's a cult in Volta that was formed after the government began relaxing the suppression of religion. This cult would be a cult of the well educated, targeting new university graduates, in particular those who under the old communist system could have expected a cushy government-assigned job and while they certainly could still go for one, with the emergence of non-government worker co-ops there'd actually be a non-government job market. Not everyone might be able to compete in this new job market, so the less fortunate talent would be targeted by the cult for recruitment. This would give them a huge amount of scientific expertise, and once you consider the rest of their beliefs make them dangerous... very very dangerous.
      To be blunt, they are a doomsday cult. But they don't think the apocalypse is a bad thing. Rather, they see it as an opportunity... for them and their followers.
      They believe that Volta will be invaded by a foreign power, and in the process of defending itself be completely destroyed. Like, think Germany and Japan after WW2 levels of destroyed. And, from the ruins of that, they believe they'd be able to get enough followers for them to gain power in Volta and establish a theocratic state, thereby "saving" the Voltan people. So, they'd want to trigger this apocalyptic war, and would be gathering materials to do it. Obviously, traditional guns and explosives would be a bit out of reach for them, so they'd need to find other weapons. And with their knowledge, they would not shy away from chemical warfare.
      THE ATTACK
      Voltan Airways Flight 444 would be flying from [cityName] (should be a city in a foreign country with friendly relations to Volta) to Vien. Unbeknownst to the crew, there are 4 or 5 members of this cult on the plane. Each one of them snuck on with liquid sarin. This sarin would be hidden in containers of shampoo, conditioner, body wash, cologne, perfume, and other toiletries that fall under the 3.4 oz (100 ml) limit. This would get past airport security as airport security screening doesn't check the contents of these containers. Trust me, I've traveled by plane many times to a variety of countries and I've never seen the contents of those 100ml liquids be checked, not even once. If such checks to occur, it must be extremely rare.
      The flight would have to fly above the airspace of [countryName] (should be a country hostile to Volta but where it makes sense to have to travel above their airspace). Shortly before entering the airspace, these people would start intentionally spilling and dispersing the liquid sarin. Since sarin is the most volatile of nerve agents it will quickly evaporate into the air. What's more is that it will quickly be dispersed throughout the cabin by the planes internal pressurization systems. When a pilot goes back to check on what's going on in the cabin, they'd let the gas into the cockpit.
      After declaring a PANPAN, and later quickly upgrading it to a MAYDAY, the aircraft would become unresponsive to all radio communications. It also would not react at all to anything, simply flying in a straight line as the autopilot maintains it's course towards [countryName]. Nothing would get any sort of response, it wouldn't even rock it's wings when intercepted by fighter jets. Depending on how much of a threat [countryName] perceives this to be, the aircraft could even be presumed to have been hijacked and shot down before any terrorist attack can happen. This is the harshest of measure, and has never happened in real life, but it is a measure that all countries (rl anyway, I assume it's the same ic) reserve the right to do in such an extremely unusual situation.
      This is exactly what the cult wants. They want the plane to be shot down, and then for Volta to be blamed for harboring terrorists. They want this to ruin Volta diplomatically. In fact, they want  it to cause a war, since they believe it will be their holy apocalypse that will bring them salvation.
      THE RP
      The RP would happen in 2 part. The first part is the flight, where I would RP with whoever is in control of the other countries airspace until either the plane is shot down by fighters or runs out of fuel and crashes. The second part is the actual investigation, where I would RP the Voltan Committee for Aviation Safety (which would want to investigate because, well, it's a Voltan plane run by a Voltan airline with a Voltan crew), and other people would investigate their own aviation safety authorities (think NTSB in America or AAIB in the UK). Once the cause is determined, it would turn into a criminal investigation and hunt for members of the cult. At this point I'd also RP the cult as it tries to hide its involvement and escalate things into a full scale war against Volta through various disinformation campaigns.
       
      So, that's the gist of my idea. It was partly inspired by Aum Shinrikyo's Tokyo subway attack, and partly by Helios Airways Flight 522. Who's interested? If anyone's interested, any ideas as to which countries could be involved in this? And finally, does anyone else here have any questions?
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