Eurth Map Rework

[Heiheguo]

BIG EDIT : The topic's name has been changed from "Climate Map Rework" to "Eurth Map Rework", as this has become a much larger discussion on the map and changes that could be made.

 

Hello everyone! I'm Creaturae / Gene, and I was told that it'd be a good idea to bring the conversation of a reworked climate map to the forums. So, here it goes!

It's fairly obvious that the current climate map + ocean currents of Eurth are lacking when compared to other in-depth projects. Just compare the current climate map of Eurth to that of Earth. It's a fairly large gap in quality (though that is to be expected, as I don't believe anyone here is a professional cartographer nor has a team of scientists to back of the research of the climate map).

So, what can be done to change this? That's where this forum comes in! I (until Orioni or any of the RP mentors tell me otherwise) will and have started work on a reworked climate map for Eurth. Now obviously, reworking the climate of the entire world can leave some nations in a difficult situation where their nation is suddenly in the middle of the desert or they have a climate akin to that of Siberia or Northern Canada. That's where this forum also comes in handy. If you have any problems with the climate that have been assigned, please let me know immediately so I can find some way around it, realistically or otherwise.

To give an idea what this new climate map will look like, here is something I worked on before.

Spoiler

Please note: this map is incorrect in multiple ways and I am in the process of remaking this again. Only use this map as a reference for the climate that you DO NOT want your nation to have. For what each color represents and what type of climate it is, please reference the Köppen climate classification Wikipedia page.

And again, if you have any questions or general feedback about the climate map, please let me know! I'm not an expert on climates either and am getting all of my information from Artifexian videos and Wikipedia.

[Seylos]

This is definitely a really cool creation. And climate is something we need to finalize for the region.

Though I do have some questions on my own area. I'm uncertain how my country is split in half between a cold arid climate and a tropical savanna. They seem like very different environments that are very close together on the same latitude. I've always kinda of gone along with the idea that the Seylosian islands were more of a sub tropical environment, like Florida's IRL.

[Tagmatium Rules]

1 minute ago, Seylos said:

This is definitely a really cool creation. And climate is something we need to finalize for the region.

Though I do have some questions on my own area. I'm uncertain how my country is split in half between a cold arid climate and a tropical savanna. They seem like very different environments that are very close together on the same latitude. I've always kinda of gone along with the idea that the Seylosian islands were more of a sub tropical environment, like Florida's IRL.

New Eurth meme: Seylos Man!

[Salvia]

I’m going to be 100% honest in what I say here: I don’t like this, but that is not me saying it is incorrect in the assessment.  I have no knowledge of climate, weather, and wind patterns.  Zilch.  But I have huge problems with suddenly changing everybody's climate.  Maybe I’m sounding like a stuck-up b*tch, and apologies if I am, but I’m not willing to change my climate, and maybe I’m speaking for other people when I say that.  Or maybe I’m alone on this, I have no clue.  But people have already RP’d their climates extensively, whether directly or indirectly.  Besides doing it in direct ways (like their wiki or something like that) people can have their canon climate be described through their history,  culture, and role plays.  Having that suddenly changed is no bueno from my perspective.  

A region’s geography is the starting block for everything- culture, history, etc. Having a climate changed changes more than just the temperature in their recent RP.  It literally changes their entire nation (if we want to be realistic about it), unless it is only a very slight change in climate.  And even then there is still changes to be made.

Additionally, for some (like me), it’s just really down to personal preference.  I wanted my nation to be where the Aroman Empire was, sort of like Tag an Adaptus, with a Mediterranean climate.  I had to settle for somewhere nearby that could reasonably be colonized (Marenesia) and settle for a climate imitar to that of the Southern U.S./Cuba.  And this is perfectly fine-  every single one of us had to compromise, and for very good reasons.  I am totally satisfied with what I have now.  But that’s kinda it- I’m satisfied with this.  If I wanted to be a nation with a climate similar to that of the Australian interior or Middle East, I would’ve picked a location that would fit.

I truly do apologize if I sound whiny right now.  I really don’t mean to sound b*tchy or that I know everything about the subject.  Because to be honest, I don’t.  I know next to nothing (I did take a class about Human Geography but all I remember is the structure of Latin American cities).  But I want to voice my opinion.

 

(Sorry for any typos.  I’m typing this on my phone and tried the best I could to proofread and fix errors)

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sancti Imperii Catholico (see edit history)

[Heiheguo]

21 minutes ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

... I have huge problems with suddenly changing everybody's climate... people have already RP’d their climates extensively, whether directly or indirectly.  Besides doing it in direct ways (like their wiki or something like that) people can have their canon climate be described through their history, culture, and role plays. Having that suddenly changed is no bueno from my perspective...

Right, and this is where the biggest problem with trying to make the current climate map more realistic. I 100% do not want to be the guy that completely ruins someone's history because I was the one who made the climate map. That's the main reason I ended up actually going through with making a forum topic instead of just keeping this map to myself to base my own nation's climate on (which was the original propose of it).

21 minutes ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

... I had to settle for somewhere nearby that could reasonably be colonized (Marenesia) and settle for a climate imitar to that of the Southern U.S./Cuba...

I do think Southern U.S. / Cuba is possible for your location. And let me make it very clear that the map I showed is not what I intended to propose as the climate map. That is merely an example for what the climate map could look like. I wanted to get feedback from people especially in your position before even attempting anything that could possibly be permanent.

 

6 hours ago, Seylos said:

 I've always kinda of gone along with the idea that the Seylosian islands were more of a sub tropical environment, like Florida's IRL.

As for you Seylos, can we talk about this in Discord DMs? Just so I can get a better understanding of what you mean, exactly.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Creaturae
wording change (see edit history)

[Variota]

Can someone help this old geezer with finding out what this would change for his nation? Reading climate maps is not one of my party tricks, sadly. 

Also, I get the sentiment of not wanting to change one's climate. I feel that, if this climate map passes on to canon, there isn't anything wrong with a bit of handwavium in so far as giving those who don't want to change, either wholly or just radically, what they want. Of course, you shouldn't want to have an arctic climate in the middle of the desert or some such but I don't believe any such realism-breaking grievances would exist. 

[Heiheguo]

5 hours ago, Variota said:

Can someone help this old geezer with finding out what this would change for his nation? Reading climate maps is not one of my party tricks, sadly.

Your nation would be similar to Fulg's; Mediterranean climate on the coasts that become slightly more arid and colder as you head inland. Temperature range of about 22 C to 0 C. Similar to the climate of Spain irl.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Creaturae (see edit history)

[Fulgistan]

I think this might also be a good opportunity to consider global geography; perhaps we could add some more natural features, islands, bodies of water, etc. to the map as we rework the climate to suit everyone's needs and make the region better. Certainly island nations are always in demand.

[Tagmatium Rules]

26 minutes ago, Fulgistan said:

I think this might also be a good opportunity to consider global geography; perhaps we could add some more natural features, islands, bodies of water, etc. to the map as we rework the climate to suit everyone's needs and make the region better. Certainly island nations are always in demand.

Are they?

In some ways, they're not as good as others. But there's a good few unclaimed islands about the place.

Especially down Marenesia.

[Fulgistan]

2 hours ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

Are they?

In some ways, they're not as good as others. But there's a good few unclaimed islands about the place.

Especially down Marenesia.

I more mean that it's like a general opportunity to people to speak up and say "Oh, I'd like a lake in my nation, or a river, or a big mountain", etc. just so that we can take this opportunity (our first big map reform in a long time) and have a bit of an open forum on geography so that we can build a better more fun Eurth. Maybe we could even add some natural features (or remove, I guess) in unoccupied territory to vary the climate a bit, or make things more interesting/varied for future players.

[Xio]

I'm going to just put my own bias to begin with: I really dislike the original climate map, even when I didn't know much about climates and water currents it just felt... off. So seeing Creaturae redoing it to be more realistic gets two thumbs up from me and shouldn't be shunned for doing so. In reality the map itself really needs to be reworked especially near the polar regions, however I understand why people don't want to budge on this.

As far as I can tell, my climate is returning to my original plan, being similar to that of western coast Africa, with Monsoons and tropical climate. Which works for Metztlitlalio and honestly is probably better then the original Savanna layout, for once Metztli not being as developed worldbuilding-wide actually helps. And as Creaturae stated, most people who want their climate not changing actually don't appear to be too far off the climate they desire, and water currents are not the only thing that determines climate, so hand waving can be done with ease. However there might be a solution that fixes both the polar nation issues and desertification, and that's not to assume Eurth has the exact same climate period as Earth. Eurth's continents are far more scattered from one another and there appears to be more water on the surface then Earth (although cannot be certain). So we can assume that Eurth may in fact have a climate more akin to the Cretaceous period.

Now that doesn't mean dinosaurs, however it does mean that the north-south temperature gradient isn't as significant, meaning it was far warmer in the north and south poles. We don't have to swing entirely one way or another either, and we could have a climate in-between, so the poles have a climate more that of southern Scandinavia or Northern England, with deserts shrunk down, allowing for those who's nations may have become deserts to return to their Mediterranean climates, whilst still allowing for large cold deserts within the interiors of larger continents. This also means larger inland seas and lakes are possible, which are always fun

Now obviously there will be drawbacks, I hope you enjoy mass flooding and giant swings in monsoons and cliffs, because the Sea level would be much higher (We can keep the current map and just *say* the sea level is higher on Eurth then Earth.) and destructive waves much more common, as well as tropical storms (hurricanes/typhoons) existing at higher latitudes then on Earth, as well as growing the already large topical climates. But I feel as though this may solve many more issues then it creates. Obviously I'd love to here what others think of this proposal. It may solve our issues or just amplify them, it's only possible to tell once we try simulate the climate map w/ these new parameters.

 

TL;DR dino climate may solve issues.

[Heiheguo]

3 minutes ago, Metztlitlalio said:

...There might be a solution that fixes both the polar nation issues and desertification, and that's not to assume Eurth has the exact same climate period as Earth. Eurth's continents are far more scattered from one another and there appears to be more water on the surface then Earth (although cannot be certain). So we can assume that Eurth may in fact have a climate more akin to the Cretaceous period.

...north-south temperature gradient isn't as significant, meaning it was far warmer in the north and south poles. We don't have to swing entirely one way or another either, and we could have a climate in-between, so the poles have a climate more that of southern Scandinavia or Northern England, with deserts shrunk down, allowing for those who's nations may have become deserts to return to their Mediterranean climates, whilst still allowing for large cold deserts within the interiors of larger continents...

The biggest problem with this is that when making one or two changes, literally everything else scales with it. Want smaller deserts? The poles are larger and generally everywhere else is colder. Want smaller poles? Enjoy warmer temperatures and larger desert climates.

The one thing that Eurth has going for it that it's a fictional place and, while realism is to be strived for, doesn't have to be 100% totally accurate all of the time. Obviously, certain climates can't be nearby others or don't make sense at certain latitudes, but overall, making small tweaks isn't too difficult and doesn't sacrifice too much of the realism of it

 

[Limonaia]

So a more Mediterranean climate for Limonaia would be... Possible?

[Heiheguo]

1 minute ago, Limonaia said:

So a more Mediterranean climate for Limonaia would be... Possible?

Humid Continental is already fairly close to Mediterranean climate, but I do think even that can be possible.

[Tagmatium Rules]

I'll admit I don't have much of a horse in this race - both climate maps have given me a climate I'm happy with.

The only thing that has changed is where I may eye up next, but that is a different parallel world where I have time or the wherewithal to do so.

[Limonaia]

Just now, Creaturae said:

Humid Continental is already fairly close to Mediterranean climate, but I do think even that can be possible.

Thought as much. Does help to have a Mediterranean climate as an Italian nation.

[Xio]

31 minutes ago, Creaturae said:

The biggest problem with this is that when making one or two changes, literally everything else scales with it. Want smaller deserts? The poles are larger and generally everywhere else is colder. Want smaller poles? Enjoy warmer temperatures and larger desert climates.

The one thing that Eurth has going for it that it's a fictional place and, while realism is to be strived for, doesn't have to be 100% totally accurate all of the time. Obviously, certain climates can't be nearby others or don't make sense at certain latitudes, but overall, making small tweaks isn't too difficult and doesn't sacrifice too much of the realism of it

 

Except I'm not changing the temperature itself, I'm changing precipitation levels due to Eurth having sparser continents that are more disconnected, which allows for the temperature of the planet to be much more uniform, allowing for the poles to be warmer and the equator to be slightly cooler, as well as due to more water and sparser continents, rainfall is more likely, allowing for what would be the transition zone for arid and non-arid, to have increased rainfall, thus decreasing the overall size of the deserts. However I totally understand where you're coming from and agree that we don't have a 100% accurate, it wouldn't be fun if it was.

[Heiheguo]

30 minutes ago, Metztlitlalio said:

Except I'm not changing the temperature itself, I'm changing precipitation levels due to Eurth having sparser continents that are more disconnected, which allows for the temperature of the planet to be much more uniform, allowing for the poles to be warmer and the equator to be slightly cooler, as well as due to more water and sparser continents, rainfall is more likely, allowing for what would be the transition zone for arid and non-arid, to have increased rainfall, thus decreasing the overall size of the deserts. However I totally understand where you're coming from and agree that we don't have a 100% accurate, it wouldn't be fun if it was.

After a very small amount of researching, I do now believe that this would be a potential solution. Though, I also think that monsoon circulation could solve many of these problems as well. I'll keep looking into it, but definitely assume that a majority of the desert (especially the one in the Eastern hemisphere) will be shrunken.

[Salvia]

I just have one question: what was the major issue with the climate/wind patterns that requires this change?  I’m not saying there isn’t an error, I’m just curious

[Heiheguo]

40 minutes ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

I just have one question: what was the major issue with the climate/wind patterns that requires this change?  I’m not saying there isn’t an error, I’m just curious

There wasn't anything that really absolutely requires change, imo. Making it more realistic is a nice QoL change and gives new nations (and even older ones) a better understanding of their own climate zone.

The reason I actually originally made the map was, as I believe I said before, for my own nation. I ended up going a bit overboard though, hehe.

I didn't want to use the map provided because a) those water currents are ridiculous and would never ever exist in any kind of circumstance, not to mention the fact that the coloring was confusing and very inaccurate

b) the climate placement was completely off, with several climates like the desert too far north and several types of climates missing completely, which should be border climates so the transition between desert and (what I assume to be) humid subtropical climate

c) like I said before, the colors were overall just confusing and didn't stick to the Koppen Climate Classifications, despite claiming to do so

And d) I really just wanted to test my own abilities to follow someone else's guide to climate using a pre-existing map

I honestly don't believe it was necessary, but I do think it would be a nice change to keep in line with the realism that the community strives for.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Creaturae
wording change (see edit history)

[Tagmatium Rules]

Honestly, it's damn impressive work.

[Salvia]

18 hours ago, Creaturae said:

There wasn't anything that really absolutely requires change, imo. Making it more realistic is a nice QoL change and gives new nations (and even older ones) a better understanding of their own climate zone.

The reason I actually originally made the map was, as I believe I said before, for my own nation. I ended up going a bit overboard though, hehe.

I didn't want to use the map provided because a) those water currents are ridiculous and would never ever exist in any kind of circumstance, not to mention the fact that the coloring was confusing and very inaccurate

b) the climate placement was completely off, with several climates like the desert too far north and several types of climates missing completely, which should be border climates so the transition between desert and (what I assume to be) humid subtropical climate

c) like I said before, the colors were overall just confusing and didn't stick to the Koppen Climate Classifications, despite claiming to do so

And d) I really just wanted to test my own abilities to follow someone else's guide to climate using a pre-existing map

I honestly don't believe it was necessary, but I do think it would be a nice change to keep in line with the realism that the community strives for.

 

Sounds like a pretty significant change did need to happen 😛

[Xio]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:19 PM, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

 

Sounds like a pretty significant change did need to happen 😛

In Geography, especially world building, tiny tweaks usually end up causing massive differences.

[Heiheguo]

1 hour ago, Metztlitlalio said:

In Geography, especially world building, tiny tweaks usually end up causing massive differences.

Mhm, and that ends up being a deterrent for change. Some people may not get what they wanted, which leads to situations where they either have to accept the change or no change can be made.

Hopefully, both of those can be avoided (for the most part, anyway) and everyone can get something they're at least not completely unsatisfied with.

 

Speaking of which, I've been sharing updates on the progress of the map on the Discord server - check out #cartography if you don't know where to look - and it's also the place I've been getting the most feedback for how the map should look. After I complete the map to a point I'm happy with, I'm also going to be posting it here for further revisions. I don't want to leave anyone out and, hopefully, this will reach the most amount of people possible.

[Xio]

Appears as though everyone is in agreement. I don’t know how far into the map you are. Will you just be using the Artifexian version or will you be going into more depth? @Creaturae