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14 hours ago, Faramount said:

Couldn't we revise it at this point? It seems like it'd make a lot more sense to do so. Has it been central to any RP?

No, not especially. It'll have been mentioned a fair amount.

It'll be easy enough to either edit older posts if and when I find the time and go with the new terminology in the future.

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There are around a dozen players who have Christianity or Judaism as a major religion, but we don't to have done a whole lot of world-building within the region regarding the Judeo-Christian tradition

Okay. So I've taken some time to look through the available factbook and wikipedia pages about Christianity, and based on what's been said here, I've got a basic proposal for an overview of the histor

@Tikva I think may be interested who has Juddism

I'm going to flag @Aluxia and @Greater Serbia in this, as the former was converted to my nation's faith by missionaries and the latter has the same vague Orthodox Christianity as some of the rest of us.

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Since one of the key or most obvious tenets of my brand is the lack of icons or religious imagery, I'd go for the "iconoclastic church". Or "Tagmatine church".

But I suppose that is a bit generic.

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I've been wanting to flesh out my religion for a while and think I might do so in a bit. I'd have to get together with Faramount and possibly others to find something we can agree upon.

When life gives you lemons...

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Well if I read that map right the Empire never had influence on Ahrana. Am I correct? I can't really tell which is what and what direction is what. Plus the Ahranaian Catholic Church is a branch from the Orthodox Church they both have the same Leader and such.

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It is true that @Ahrana is outside the Aroman area, so Christianity would have reached it through alternate means. Perhaps just Christian traders and the like reaching Ahrana, and spreading their religion to the locals. So it could be that your church is restorationist in that those traders described that there once was an organized Christiandom that has collapsed. Alternately, perhaps you and a few others (particularly @Sancti Imperii Catholico ) would need a separate denominational category for churches formed far away from Arome by Christians. 

If your Catholic and Orthodox churches are still led by a single pope, it might make more sense to rename them, anyway, as that'd be a substantially different setup than the traditional Orthodox/Catholic split.

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On 5/5/2019 at 4:49 PM, Faramount said:

So if everyone is willing to make changes, I think I've some thoughts for denominational groups. We'd not have Orthodox (because no schism), Catholic (because this term only came to have its present meaning after the Protestant reformation), or Protestants (because nobody is really protesting the church's problems). We'd instead have:

Restorationist Churches ( @Ahrana's current Orthodox, @Tagmatium Rules, @Cristina, @Sancti Imperii Catholico, @Iverica, @Great Burlington, @North Dniester) : these churches are founded in the several centuries following the collapse of the Aroman Empire, essentially seeking to restore organized Christianity (hence the name). There are huge differences between the churches, but all are similar for being the first attempts at reformation. Most are state-run (or at least were, originally).

Independent Churches (Ahrana's current Catholic, @Seylos , @Limonaia ) : these churches are founded in the Middle Ages for various political and religious reasons. They're known as independent because most are independent of the state (unlike most of the restorationist churches) and because they were formed independently of the restorationist movement.

Those are essentially the two major groupings we'd have at this point. Alternately, we could wait to see how everyone makes changes, and then try to do more belief-based groupings.

Uh, “Catholic” had a meaning well before the Protestant Reformstion.

it was first used in the early second century AD by Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch.

On 5/5/2019 at 10:55 PM, Faramount said:

It is true that @Ahrana is outside the Aroman area, so Christianity would have reached it through alternate means. Perhaps just Christian traders and the like reaching Ahrana, and spreading their religion to the locals. So it could be that your church is restorationist in that those traders described that there once was an organized Christiandom that has collapsed. Alternately, perhaps you and a few others (particularly @Sancti Imperii Catholico ) would need a separate denominational category for churches formed far away from Arome by Christians. 

If your Catholic and Orthodox churches are still led by a single pope, it might make more sense to rename them, anyway, as that'd be a substantially different setup than the traditional Orthodox/Catholic split.

I’m not that far away- I’m pretty much closer than almost everyone.

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16 minutes ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

Uh, “Catholic” had a meaning well before the Protestant Reformstion.

it was first used in the early second century AD by Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch.

Correct, but as a general synonym for Christian. It did not have the same meaning today. I'd suggest we'd be best served to suggest that the term fell out of style in-game as such, as that'd let us avoid confusion regarding what "Catholic" means.

Alternately, we could just use Catholic as a synonym for Christian.

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24 minutes ago, Faramount said:

Correct, but as a general synonym for Christian. It did not have the same meaning today. I'd suggest we'd be best served to suggest that the term fell out of style in-game as such, as that'd let us avoid confusion regarding what "Catholic" means.

Alternately, we could just use Catholic as a synonym for Christian.

Why would it?

 

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On 5/7/2019 at 9:57 AM, Tagmatium Rules said:

Could it end up being more commonly used as an exonym for your nation or people?

It could, but I’ve already extensively used “Salvian” or “Salvia”

I just don’t see a problem with me continuing to call my Church “Catholic” jointly with @Iverica.

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3 hours ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

It could, but I’ve alresdy extensively used “Salvian” or “Salvia”

I just don’t see a problem with me continuing to call my Church “Catholic” jointly with @Iverica.

Fair.

I was just suggesting :)

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6 hours ago, Sancti Imperii Catholico said:

It could, but I’ve alresdy extensively used “Salvian” or “Salvia”

I just don’t see a problem with me continuing to call my Church “Catholic” jointly with @Iverica.

The general idea was to move away from the real-life designations to avoid confusion between our alternate universe and the real world. So even though "Orthodox" could theoretically work for some countries independently of the RL Orthodox Church, we'd look to leave that behind so there's no confusion between the two.

But if your church actually is exactly the same as Roman Catholicism, I suppose there wouldn't really be any confusion. 

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So there's an ongoing push for people to move towards more independent and creative denominations, as opposed to existing real-life denominations. Once we've seen how most people have established themselves, we can try to develop denominational groups. But we can keep working on some general thoughts in the meantime.

Our current timeline has the Aroman Empire collapsing sometime in the fifth century, and the church fragmenting following the collapse of the empire. So my thought is that the First Council of Nicaea occurred in 325 IG as IRL and the First Council of Constantinople occurred in 381 IG as IRL, but that all subsequent ecumenical councils would've been piecemeal (some churches participating, some not). There'd be no definitive schisms here as such -- it's just whether or not the Ahranan Church or Cristenese Church or whatever attended/accepted a council.

We could even do a chart indicating which churches accept which basic Christian beliefs.

_________

Not to be confused with Variotan Christianity. For more information, see Christianity.

Christianity is an Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament. Christianity itself is divided into a number of denominations, whose adherents have differing practices while still believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and savior of all people, whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament. 

Christianity developed during the 1st century CE as a Jewish Christian sect of Second Temple Judaism. It soon also attracted Gentile God-fearers, which lead to a departure from Jewish customs, and the establishment of Christianity as an independent religion. It spread through the Aroman Empire and surrounding areas during the 1st and 2nd centuries, becoming a dominant cultural force. The Aroman Empire legalized Christianity in the early 3rd century and then adopted Christianity as the state religion in the mid 3rd century. The Empire oversaw two major ecumenical councils in the fourth century, helping to propagate a unified Christian creed.

The collapse of the Aroman Empire in the fifth century prompted a large-scale fragmentation of Christianity. A number of groups of churches reorganized themselves independently now that the imperial structure had disappeared, creating independent denominations such as the Salvian Catholic Church and Iverican Catholic Church. More commonly, newly rising states claimed control of the Christian churches within their borders, creating state-run denominations such as the Ahranan Orthodox Church, Tagmatine Orthodox Church, Cristense Orthodox Church, the Burlingtonian Orthodox Church, and the Dniestrian Orthodox Church. Over time, new denominations split off from old ones over various theological and political differences, creating the Limonaian Catholic Church, Seylosian Protestant Church, Christian Imperialist Church, and others.

Christianity is amongst the most popular religions on Eurth with over a billion followers. Many of the world's most influential nations are majority Christian including Iverica, Seylos, Tagmatium, Cristina, and Limonaia. Christianity and Christian ethics have played a prominent role in the development of Western civilization, particularly in Europa and Argis during late antiquity and the Middle Ages.

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4 hours ago, Faramount said:

So there's an ongoing push for people to move towards more independent and creative denominations, as opposed to existing real-life denominations. Once we've seen how most people have established themselves, we can try to develop denominational groups. But we can keep working on some general thoughts in the meantime.

Our current timeline has the Aroman Empire collapsing sometime in the fifth century, and the church fragmenting following the collapse of the empire. So my thought is that the First Council of Nicaea occurred in 325 IG as IRL and the First Council of Constantinople occurred in 381 IG as IRL, but that all subsequent ecumenical councils would've been piecemeal (some churches participating, some not). There'd be no definitive schisms here as such -- it's just whether or not the Ahranan Church or Cristenese Church or whatever attended/accepted a council.

We could even do a chart indicating which churches accept which basic Christian beliefs.

_________

Not to be confused with Variotan Christianity. For more information, see Christianity.

Christianity is an Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament. Christianity itself is divided into a number of denominations, whose adherents have differing practices while still believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and savior of all people, whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament. 

Christianity developed during the 1st century CE as a Jewish Christian sect of Second Temple Judaism. It soon also attracted Gentile God-fearers, which lead to a departure from Jewish customs, and the establishment of Christianity as an independent religion. It spread through the Aroman Empire and surrounding areas during the 1st and 2nd centuries, becoming a dominant cultural force. The Aroman Empire legalized Christianity in the early 3rd century and then adopted Christianity as the state religion in the mid 3rd century. The Empire oversaw two major ecumenical councils in the fourth century, helping to propagate a unified Christian creed.

The collapse of the Aroman Empire in the fifth century prompted a large-scale fragmentation of Christianity. A number of groups of churches reorganized themselves independently now that the imperial structure had disappeared, creating independent denominations such as the Salvian Catholic Church and Iverican Catholic Church. More commonly, newly rising states claimed control of the Christian churches within their borders, creating state-run denominations such as the Ahranan Orthodox Church, Tagmatine Orthodox Church, Cristense Orthodox Church, the Burlingtonian Orthodox Church, and the Dniestrian Orthodox Church. Over time, new denominations split off from old ones over various theological and political differences, creating the Limonaian Catholic Church, Seylosian Protestant Church, Christian Imperialist Church, and others.

Christianity is amongst the most popular religions on Eurth with over a billion followers. Many of the world's most influential nations are majority Christian including Iverica, Seylos, Tagmatium, Cristina, and Limonaia. Christianity and Christian ethics have played a prominent role in the development of Western civilization, particularly in Europa and Argis during late antiquity and the Middle Ages.

I presume we'll change the names of the councils?

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I wouldn't there isn't much to change really, theyre just 1st Ecumenical Councils and so forth unless im missing something here

 

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34 minutes ago, Ahrana said:

I wouldn't there isn't much to change really, theyre just 1st Ecumenical Councils and so forth unless im missing something here

 

I'm not sure what you mean?

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6 minutes ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

I'm not sure what you mean?

wait never mind that one I forgot they other names besides Ecumenical.

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This thread has meant that I had to dig out an old nation's factbook to check on a few things. They reference Nestorian Christianity as as minority religion in their nation.

Without getting into the the theology involved or attempting to (even more) awkwardly retcon a few things, should I basically just metaphorically flip a coin and come up with some Roman-sounding name for Eurth's version of a heretical strand of Christianity that spread through a state that kind of played a role similar to the Persians of real life?

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@Cristina How do you envision the circumstances to your nation's church gaining autocephaly?

The closest that Europa comes to right now to an Orthodox communion is the Aroman Church, which is what the majority Christian denomination is in the old Aroman Empire, which is basically @Adaptus and Tagmatium, and probably @Byzantium Nova.

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3 hours ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

@Cristina How do you envision the circumstances to your nation's church gaining autocephaly?

The closest that Europa comes to right now to an Orthodox communion is the Aroman Church, which is what the majority Christian denomination is in the old Aroman Empire, which is basically @Adaptus and Tagmatium, and probably Byzantium Nova.

I was thinking something related to Byzantium Nova when I wrote about Cristinese Church, just because it's closer to Cristina. Since BN is gone even before my time here I could not develope anything else.

Following my early ideas and what I could write about, the Autocephaly of Cristinese Orthodox Church was met some years after Cristina became a independent Kingdom in 1714, when it reached a notable number of learned clerics, a more regulated monastic life and a more stable church hierarchy. Also there was a charismatic figure of a monk named Titus of Modena (now St. Titus) who came to led the church in the city and, taking it all in account, sought that the head of the Cristinese church was appointed not by BN but by somewhere else (maybe Aroma?), "breaking" with BN church.

I haven't thought much about it lately, but it is something I would like to work on... or maybe change everything. Any ideas?

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