help History of Christanity/Judaism

[Faramount]

There are around a dozen players who have Christianity or Judaism as a major religion, but we don't to have done a whole lot of world-building within the region regarding the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'd suggest we should change that. I'll page @Cristina, @Limonaia, @Variota, @Tagmatium Rules, @Sancti Imperii Catholico, @Iverica, and @Ahrana, just to start.

So here's the big question -- have we decided where Catholicism originated? Could we try to breakdown when and why the major splits occurred? 

[Glimmer]

@Tikva I think may be interested who has Juddism

Edited May 1, 2019 by Oyus (see edit history)

[Cristina]

Maybe Catholicism originated in ancient Aroma?

Christianity per se may be originated somewhere around Konstantinopoli Sea.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Cristina (see edit history)

[Faramount]

I've noticed that Byzantium Nova is located quite dominantly on the Konstantinopoli Sea, and has a Latin/Greek language/culture (according to his 2004 factbook and 2005 factbook). Perhaps we could say that Christianity emerged there? According to his factbook, his totalitarian government has banned all religion, so this could explain why there's no longer an equivalent of "Rome". Historically, we could say it was Konstantinopoli.

[Variota]

Variotan Christianity/Catholicism is more a name that fits the closest than anything else. IC'ly, it has a large Variot name that I can't be bothered copying over while on mobile. 

Essentially though, the Messiah, the holy Wilm of Amalberga suddenly appeared on the blessed ship the Amalberga during a storm that threatened to swallow the ship. Clouds broke, a sharp bright light shined on the spot where he suddenly was, all that good stuff. 

He led the Variotans, previously sea nomads, to their new home, transformed the existing clergy on the ships (I'm thinking some form of shamans or such as sailors tend to be superstitious) and provided the first couple of books. I'm thinking of going with the cross being the mast of a ship instead. 

Anyway, this essentially means that Variotan Christianity/Catholicism wouldn't come from the same shared place. 

[Tagmatium Rules]

8 hours ago, Faramount said:

I've noticed that Byzantium Nova is located quite dominantly on the Konstantinopoli Sea, and has a Latin/Greek language/culture (according to his 2004 factbook and 2005 factbook). Perhaps we could say that Christianity emerged there? According to his factbook, his totalitarian government has banned all religion, so this could explain why there's no longer an equivalent of "Rome". Historically, we could say it was Konstantinopoli.

Me, O and formerly Adaptus have been tweaking the cultural groups of Europa for things to better fit overall plans, and Europa's equivalent of Rome is "Arome".

This is the culture that me and Adaptus sprang from. Arome itself is within my territory, although I've been having difficulty trying to find a good fit for it within my country. We're kind of planning (I think) to explain Byzantium Nova as a weird off-shoot, possibly similar to those Roman legionairies who supposedly ended up in China after Crassus' defeat by the Parthians.

He is OOCly the first Byzantine knock off in the region before me, however

I'm not claiming to be the first Christian nation, nor where all of the different branches orginated. On top of that, my brand of Christianity is somewhat different to other, later denominations - my one holds that all depictions of religious figures are against the commandment about graven images, and is generally quite austere compared to others.

I think me and @Sancti Imperii Catholico did roughly work out when the person who converted his nation left mine, but I can't find the date to hand.

[Faramount]

Perhaps the Aroman Empire could stretch as far as Byzantium Nova? That'd provide a basis for Christianity reaching Cristine, as well, right? And we could say that Jesus lived (and Judaism emerged) somewhere in the large unclaimed area of Europa. That'd also explain Islam being in Mahdah and Sa Hara.

So we could potentially say that original Catholicism -- as its known IRL -- died out with the Aroman Empire. If any player ever wants to be pure, RL Catholic, they can say they're like the remnants of that belief system. But otherwise, there'd be no original Catholic Church anymore.

We'd then just need to chart when the various denominations shot off, and we could create a good Eurth Christianity wiki page.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Faramount (see edit history)

[Tagmatium Rules]

There's this map:

I'll emphasise it's a rough one and not exactly definitive.

[Faramount]

Dark red being direct control, mid red being indirect control, light red being influence? That'd certainly fit. 

Have we decided approximately when the Aroman Empire would've collapsed?

[Faramount]

Okay. So I've taken some time to look through the available factbook and wikipedia pages about Christianity, and based on what's been said here, I've got a basic proposal for an overview of the history of Christianity. Obviously, this is just a very early proposal, and I'm sure we'll need to probably completely rewrite it to account for specific national histories.

Christianity emerges in the first century as a sect of Judaism, but quickly breaks off into its own religion. The Aroman Empire adopts the religion as its official religion in the fourth century, but when the Aroman Empire subsequently collapses (year TBD), Christianity falls into disarray. There is no Council of Ephesus or Council of Chalcedon. To some extent, this facilitates the spread of the religion, as its beliefs can be significantly changed in order to facilitate new people joining (explaining it suddenly being all over the world).

Most of the major modern denominations come into existance as state-established religions in which the head of state is the head of the church (we see this in @Ahrana, @Tagmatium Rules, and @Cristina). These churches come to be referred to as "Orthodox" churches because they tend to seek to revive the practices and rules of the old Aroman Catholic Church. Catholic Churches emerge for a variety of political and religious reasons, probably mostly related to desiring independence from politics (the Ahranian Catholic Church and Tatani Catholic Church come out of Ahranian Orthodoxy, Tag's Catholic Church and @Sancti Imperii Catholico Salvian Catholicism come from Tagmatine Orthodoxy, @Limonaian Catholicism comes out of Cristinese Orthodoxy).  

Protestantism would probably be more a reaction to the corruption of politically-dominated churches than to the corruption of a central, independent Catholic Church. @Seylos could weigh in here on how he felt Seylosian Protestantism came into being. 

Bottom line here is that Christianity would be far more fractured, with much larger differences between denominations, compared to real life. 

[Tagmatium Rules]

3 hours ago, Faramount said:

Okay. So I've taken some time to look through the available factbook and wikipedia pages about Christianity, and based on what's been said here, I've got a basic proposal for an overview of the history of Christianity. Obviously, this is just a very early proposal, and I'm sure we'll need to probably completely rewrite it to account for specific national histories.

Christianity emerges in the first century as a sect of Judaism, but quickly breaks off into its own religion. The Aroman Empire adopts the religion as its official religion in the fourth century, but when the Aroman Empire subsequently collapses (year TBD), Christianity falls into disarray. There is no Council of Ephesus or Council of Chalcedon. To some extent, this facilitates the spread of the religion, as its beliefs can be significantly changed in order to facilitate new people joining (explaining it suddenly being all over the world).

Most of the major modern denominations come into existance as state-established religions in which the head of state is the head of the church (we see this in @Ahrana, @Tagmatium Rules, and @Cristina). These churches come to be referred to as "Orthodox" churches because they tend to seek to revive the practices and rules of the old Aroman Catholic Church. Catholic Churches emerge for a variety of political and religious reasons, probably mostly related to desiring independence from politics (the Ahranian Catholic Church and Tatani Catholic Church come out of Ahranian Orthodoxy, Tag's Catholic Church and @Sancti Imperii Catholico Salvian Catholicism come from Tagmatine Orthodoxy, @Limonaian Catholicism comes out of Cristinese Orthodoxy).  

Protestantism would probably be more a reaction to the corruption of politically-dominated churches than to the corruption of a central, independent Catholic Church. @Seylos could weigh in here on how he felt Seylosian Protestantism came into being. 

Bottom line here is that Christianity would be far more fractured, with much larger differences between denominations, compared to real life. 

I'm cool with that, albeit with some tweaks - me and Adaptus were thinking about 500 for the collapse of Arome, although we'd not quite decided on how that would take place. Considering the sheer size, I'd go for over-extension and subsequent fragmentation, rather than barbarian invasions. Maybe plague thrown in there for good measure. Tagmatium holds itself to be a continuation rather than a successor but that's open to debate.

I was initially going to have some sort of cataclysm explain why Arome doesn't appear on the map, specifically an earthquake, but Tagmatium is quite far away from any faultlines. A meteorite might be over-egging it.

[Faramount]

Could the city have been sacked, maybe? Burned to the ground by some kind of invading force?

[Tagmatium Rules]

4 hours ago, Faramount said:

Could the city have been sacked, maybe? Burned to the ground by some kind of invading force?

It doesn't necessarily matter for this point. I'm kind of tempted to not mirror the Sack(s) of Rome, though. Suffice to say, Arome became a backwater and it ended up being politically expedient to move the capital of what Tagmatium considers civilised Christianity to Europatorion and then Tagmatika.

[Ahrana]

So the Churches in Ahrana are headed by the former Imperial Family still which the current Secretary General is part of but is not the head of. 

The Orthodox Church is the original Church created in Ahrana, while the Catholic Church emerged from the Orthodox Church like in the Modern day Church today. However the differences are between them are small. They are on the WIKI I haven't added much to them yet I have a bit I need to add to it but it's in progress and I would definitely like to help with this.

[Cristina]

On 5/2/2019 at 11:12 AM, Faramount said:

Okay. So I've taken some time to look through the available factbook and wikipedia pages about Christianity, and based on what's been said here, I've got a basic proposal for an overview of the history of Christianity. Obviously, this is just a very early proposal, and I'm sure we'll need to probably completely rewrite it to account for specific national histories.

Christianity emerges in the first century as a sect of Judaism, but quickly breaks off into its own religion. The Aroman Empire adopts the religion as its official religion in the fourth century, but when the Aroman Empire subsequently collapses (year TBD), Christianity falls into disarray. There is no Council of Ephesus or Council of Chalcedon. To some extent, this facilitates the spread of the religion, as its beliefs can be significantly changed in order to facilitate new people joining (explaining it suddenly being all over the world).

Most of the major modern denominations come into existance as state-established religions in which the head of state is the head of the church (we see this in @Ahrana, @Tagmatium Rules, and @Cristina). These churches come to be referred to as "Orthodox" churches because they tend to seek to revive the practices and rules of the old Aroman Catholic Church. Catholic Churches emerge for a variety of political and religious reasons, probably mostly related to desiring independence from politics (the Ahranian Catholic Church and Tatani Catholic Church come out of Ahranian Orthodoxy, Tag's Catholic Church and @Sancti Imperii Catholico Salvian Catholicism come from Tagmatine Orthodoxy, @Limonaian Catholicism comes out of Cristinese Orthodoxy).  

Protestantism would probably be more a reaction to the corruption of politically-dominated churches than to the corruption of a central, independent Catholic Church. @Seylos could weigh in here on how he felt Seylosian Protestantism came into being. 

Bottom line here is that Christianity would be far more fractured, with much larger differences between denominations, compared to real life. 

I really like that. I am cool with that too. 

[Iverica]

Okay, tbh, having like 5-8 different "orthodox" and "Catholic" churches makes about as much sense as a hairy trout. 

No, we are absolutely not going to explain it away "mULtiPLe DIfFeREnt Christianities emerged on their own and have totally nothing to do with the Aroman/Tagmatine churches. 

 

At some point, it will have come to terms that anything that is going to be labelled under the same terms will have to come from a single point of canon.

If you want your own version of events, either call a schism or rename your damn church to something.

Anyway, my point is just that we will have to acknowledge an original point of origin if we want to stay on the same stream.

The problem I'm homing on is the existence of Ahranaian Catholicism and Limonaian Catholicism, and Salvian Catholicism... ad absurdum.

I'm not talking about Variota's thing which has a significantly different stream of theology.

 

[Faramount]

We'd ultimately be saying that "Orthodox" and "Catholic" mean something quite a bit different on Eurth than in real life. I'd written up the below proposal for a "Christianity on Eurth" subsection of the "Religion on Eurth" page last night, before your post, @Iverica. I think it accurately summarizes the consensus we had been reaching.

Otherwise, we'd need people to make some major changes. Most of our "Orthodox Churches" aren't Orthodox at all -- they're state-run, whereas the Orthodox Church is an independent entity. And our "Catholic" churches aren't really Catholic because the defining feature of the RL Catholic Church is the supremacy of the pope, who doesn't exist on Eurth. Now, frankly, I wouldn't mind making those changes on my nation's behalf because they don't matter -- but I don't know about others.

_______________

Not to be confused with Variotan Christianity. For more information, see Christianity.

Christianity is an Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the New Testament. Christianity itself is divided into a number of denominations, whose adherents have slightly different practices while still believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and savior of all people, whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament. These denominations are broadly grouped into three categories: Orthodox churches, Catholic churches, and Protestant churches.

Christianity developed during the 1st century CE as a Jewish Christian sect of Second Temple Judaism. It soon also attracted Gentile God-fearers, which lead to a departure from Jewish customs, and the establishment of Christianity as an independent religion. It spread through the Aroman Empire and surrounding areas during the 1st and 2nd centuries, becoming a dominant cultural force. The Aroman Empire legalized Christianity in the early 3rd century and then adopted Christianity as the state religion in the mid 3rd century. The Aroman-backed church collapsed along with the Aroman Empire, however, leaving Christianity in organizational disarray by the fifth century.

Much of the Europan population remained highly faithful to Christianity despite the collapse of the Aroman church, and a number of Arome's successor states acted to reconstitute organized Christianity. Most of these churches sought to resume the core practices of the Aroman church, and have thus been labelled "Orthodox". The most well-known Orthodox churches are the Tagmatium Orthodox Church, Ahranian Orthodox Church, Dneister Orthodox Church, and Cristinese Orthodox Church. Most of the Orthodox churches have maintained close ties through the years, having the similar political goal of serving their respective states. The Orthodox churches held seven ecumenical councils between 500 and 900 CE, developing a highly coherent faith despite their separation.

A number of churches broke off from the Orthodox churches in the Middle Ages, forming the independent churches now known as the Catholic churches of Eurth. The Catholic churches are defined by independence from government, supremacy of a single religious figure (a pope), and a number of other ecclesiastical differences from the Orthodox churches. Though all independent, the various Catholic churches quickly established strong relations with one another in the Middle Ages, seeking support in their often illegal attempt to form a new Christian denomination. Representatives of the various Catholic churches have held another fourteen ecumenical councils since 1000 CE, and as a result, Catholicism is very religious consistent worldwide despite there not being a single Catholic religious order. The largest Catholic churches are the Ahranian Catholic Church, Salvian Catholic Church, and Limonaian Catholic Church.

A third group of Christian faiths known as Protestant denominations emerged in the Renaissance Era in response to the perceived corruption of both the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Churches. Unlike Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the various Protestant churches have failed to maintain any level of cooperation, ecclesiastical coherence, or other connection. There are hundreds of Protestant faiths, some independent and some state-controlled, and many having slightly or significantly different beliefs. The most well-known Protestant denominations are the Seylosian Protestants and the Faramontese Christian Imperialists.

Christianity is amongst the most popular religions on Eurth with over a billion followers. Many of the world's most influential nations are majority Christian including Iverica, Seylos, Tagmatium, Cristina, and Limonaia. Christianity and Christian ethics have played a prominent role in the development of Western civilization, particularly in Europa and Argis during late antiquity and the Middle Ages.

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Faramount (see edit history)

[Faramount]

I'll just add here that it is a futile endeavor to try to recreate Christianity on Eurth exactly as it exists on Earth. Christianity developed as it did on Eurth because of a number of historical political contexts and events. Without a Rome (the bishop of which is trying to be pope), how is there an Orthodox schism? Without a Germany, how do we know there's a Martin Luther to nail anything on the door of his local church?

There are going to be some changes, ultimately, its unavoidable if we're using RL stuff in an alternate world.

[Iverica]

@Faramount, on your point of "it is a futile effort to recreate Christianity".

I fully agree. It is from that point that I think labels of "orthodoxy" and "catholicism" are equally useless unless they have some sort of referential meaning--significance to a certain Eurth canon.

Just to reiterate my points, what I am saying is:

 

• The use of simple catchall terms like "orthodoxy" and "catholicism" is lazily worldbuilding unless it actually originates from something meaningful to that title.
• I agree it is futile to recreate Christianity on Eurth as it is IRL. I don't claim differently. That being said, I do not attack the way SIC and Tagmatium have gone about their con-religions as (SIC at least) has acknowledged that events have not gone down the way they have IRL. 

I am merely adding something which I think is not really being acknowledged--evident in the amount of XYZ orthodoxy/catholicism.

TLDR: I advise people not to cop-out by choosing misnomeric religion names. Pick names that are meaningful, otherwise reference/build from something that gives the term meaning.

 

[Ahrana]

@Iverica I had no intention of it being like anything like modern day Orthodox or Catholicism honestly. I am taking things from those branches of Christianity but also others and not just Christian influences really, what I am comprising together is a mixture of a few other Religions Philosophical points that can work together but of course its a monotheistic based religion.

[Faramount]

Maybe we could talk about possibly creating new names for the various denominations, then, if they're not really like the real life denominations? 

[Tagmatium Rules]

9 hours ago, Iverica said:

@Faramount, on your point of "it is a futile effort to recreate Christianity".

I fully agree. It is from that point that I think labels of "orthodoxy" and "catholicism" are equally useless unless they have some sort of referential meaning--significance to a certain Eurth canon.

Just to reiterate my points, what I am saying is:

 

• The use of simple catchall terms like "orthodoxy" and "catholicism" is lazily worldbuilding unless it actually originates from something meaningful to that title.
• I agree it is futile to recreate Christianity on Eurth as it is IRL. I don't claim differently. That being said, I do not attack the way SIC and Tagmatium have gone about their con-religions as (SIC at least) has acknowledged that events have not gone down the way they have IRL. 

I am merely adding something which I think is not really being acknowledged--evident in the amount of XYZ orthodoxy/catholicism.

TLDR: I advise people not to cop-out by choosing misnomeric religion names. Pick names that are meaningful, otherwise reference/build from something that gives the term meaning.

 

In fairness, my shit is basically lazy worldbuilding. It comes from a time when I was much younger and didn't put a lot of thought into this sort of thing. I'd likely not do what I did now, but working from a place of almost fourteen years of writing gives me little choice.

[Seylos]

On 5/2/2019 at 10:12 AM, Faramount said:

Protestantism would probably be more a reaction to the corruption of politically-dominated churches than to the corruption of a central, independent Catholic Church. @Seylos could weigh in here on how he felt Seylosian Protestantism came into being. 

So Seylosian Protestantism came about due to fleeing from Great Burlington to Seylos. The main reason for it is Seylos's king was outed as being a homosexual in order to weaken his rebellion in Great Burlington which did work. However the grievances that bonded most of the rebelling lords still held them together while recognizing him. After fleeing to Seylos when they lost, King Harold essentially bribed the clergy that went with them with more governmental power in order to allow homosexuality so nobody would challenge his reign based on it. From there of course there was a total break from the main church and it went off on its own.

[Salvia]

I apologize greatly that I have not been paying attention so that I did not reply to this WAY sooner, which I should’ve.  I’m on my phone currently and will type more later (my thoughts, etc.), but I’ll try to clarify things right now. @Faramount

 

• Salvian Catholicism originated after one of the apostles, whom I’ve titled “Liosous,” left the Aroman Empire to spread the faith around 120 AD, probably close to 122.  Due to distance, the newly established “Salvian” Church was unable to communicate with the Church in Arome, and so slowly separated into a different religion (as opposed to the abrupt schism as seen in Catholic-Orthodox Schism of 1054)
• As far as I am concerned, I am claiming to be the first “Catholic” Christian religion, although Iverica may have me beat
• I am basically the IRL Catholic Church with minor differences and traditions.
• Me and @Iverica have been discussing over possibly being in a diarchic relationship, with each electing one pope- their relationship or really anything else has not been discussed

Edited May 5, 2019 by Sancti Imperii Catholico (see edit history)

[Faramount]

34 minutes ago, Tagmatium Rules said:

In fairness, my shit is basically lazy worldbuilding. It comes from a time when I was much younger and didn't put a lot of thought into this sort of thing. I'd likely not do what I did now, but working from a place of almost fourteen years of writing gives me little choice.

Couldn't we revise it at this point? It seems like it'd make a lot more sense to do so. Has it been central to any RP?

Edited May 4, 2019 by Faramount (see edit history)