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Request: Andune


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Nation in Europa: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=golgafrinchian

Flag: FlagofAsteria3.png

Capital name: Pelargir

Capital location: Coastal - exact location depends a bit on the geography

Factbook link: The Andunic Consortium

Newsroom link: CPBA

Culture: This isn't really carved into stone. So far my factbook is written with a lot of hellenic references, which are mostly of historical significance. Modern day melting pot with little unique cultural identity is what I end up RPing with on a day-to-day basis. I deliberately left my history out of the factbook so far because I knew I'd just end up rewriting it once my nation found its home.

Climate: Looking at the Köppen map there don't seem to be too many choices other than tropical or subtropical and variations thereof. Typically I have my nation set up in either a cold/temperate/continental climate or oceanic.

Location History: with the hellenic cultural history, I wouldn't mind having some ancient history in the area where I'll be located. The history I had so far for this nation was that it had slowly developed out of a miltitude of city states and small Republics (a minimum of 12, according to my flag) spread across islands, the coastline and dotted areas landinwards.

 

I have a few areas in mind, but I'm open for any and all ideas you may have.

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Sounds like a perfect fit for the Phallenic Penisula. :D That, however would be very mediterranean. Lots of choices for you though, proximity to @Synturia or @Asgeirria and @Rihan could work out as well. Naturally, I'm thrilled to see another technocratic and/or corporatocratic nation. The yellow wave rises and will soon engulf the whole world! :D

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Phallenic ... sounds ... very masculine.

Where is that though on the map? I couldn't find it.

 

I've been somewhat eyeing the western Aurelian coast where those islands are.

Otherwise it would also be interesting to be kind of stretched out/broken apart as it'd work well with what I have my nation set up to be so far. But I'll be happy wherever a friendly neighborhood corporatocracy is welcomed ^^

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16 minutes ago, Andune said:

Where is that though on the map? I couldn't find it.

Look for Argis' dick.

16 minutes ago, Andune said:

But I'll be happy wherever a friendly neighborhood corporatocracy is welcomed ^^

You could go for the peninsula south-west of @Synturia, southwestern Aurelia, west of @Rihan would work perfectly fine as well.

Pinging @Orioni for reference.

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@Synturia messaged me yesterday about the similarities between your two nations. Naturally, there are no accusations of ripping anyone off, and I do not know whether this has been discussed on the Discord before since reading through two weeks worth of forum posts is easier than reading through two weeks worth of Discord conversation. Nevertheless, there are a couple of things I want to mention.

  1. First off, there was a lot of discussion between Synturia and the rest of the community that made him have serious doubts about whether or not this was the right region for him. It took me a lot of effort to convince him that it can be, if handled correctly. The main point is that if you want to be technologically advanced, you need to RP the progress. As I can see, you're doing the right thing with the algae production.
  2. Furthermore, I want to point out that the similarities between you, @Andune and Synturia do not have to be stuff for conflict. Synturia even mentioned that with you being what he strives to become, he feels obsolete. This is a suboptimal feeling that I don't want any member of the community to feel, everyone should be welcome to roleplay here and to feel like their nation makes a difference. In my opinion, we cannot accept one member feeling useless or left behind by someone else.

Therefore, I'd propose the following: to resolve conflict in a most efficient and constructive way, I strongly suggest placing Andune on one of the islands in the north or the south of Synturia and starting off as a smaller, but efficient nation nevertheless. The whole city-state idea could still work, as the primary subsidiary states could all really be rather cities than states, confederated into a small nation. This would force Andune to have become a sustainable nation, as resources within its territory would be limited, whilst Synturia developed into an industrial moloch because of the abundance of space and resources on his larger island. Thereby, both nations could learn from one another and piggyback off each other. Whilst Synturia could supply heavy duty machines to Andune, Andune could teach Synturia how to be more environmentally friendly. Furthermore, what is better for business and economy than a little bit of competition?

As I see it, there is more to win here than to lose and I hope that this solution would satisfy all parties involved in this dilemma. I do not want to lose Synturia, my technocratic role model, because he feels unneeded, unwanted or unnecessary and I don't want to close the doors to new members because of similarities to other nations.

I hope that my fellow mods and admins will share my view and I once more suggest this modus operandi as the best way to go to @Orioni.

Pinging mods, admins and RP moderators for reference and C&C.

@Tagmatium Rules @Adaptus @Iverica @Gallambria @Variota

Also pinging @Prymont, as he was one of the main opponents to Synturia's style. All opinions and comments are welcome and helping.

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About the technology

  • Pro: If we stick solely to MODERN TECH and roleplay it if we want a little development, like @Sunset Sea Islands has done, then I have no issues whatsoever.
  • Contra: If you want to copy and paste existing IRL articles and not even change the names of companies, then you don't deserve your small advancements. 

If you have trouble with deciding what is and isn't modern tech, which is what this region is exactly about, you're more than welcome to ask a mod, specifically one of our two designated RP Moderators. I have no issue with the players that fit modern tech standards, which is the vast majority of active users.

About the location

Now, @Andune mentions Hellenic, which makes me think of the Hellenic Rus. It's always a possibility to be placed somewhere near central Argis, as, despite all of the propaganda going around right now, it's not just a place for socialists. Our phallic area, which is directly southeast of Beleareas, could also work. Wanting to be slightly ahead of the curve in regards to technology doesn't mean you need to be placed next to Synturia. I'd suggest you talk in-depth with Synturia and SSI too regarding government ideologies, as having such a close relationship with one of them would likely lead to them pushing technocracy onto you - check if that works for you and is something you'd be interested in. 

In the end, I'm happy as long as you don't take the piss with writing and technological progress, although I'm not a mod and have no authority over this.

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@Prymont @Andune calls himself the friendly neighborhood corporatocracy and mentioned leaning technocratic in his wiki. So I guess nobody would get forced to do anything. Other than that, yes, that summaries our technological standards very well. No progress without development and stay within the limits (and numbers) of what already exists.

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I'm a bit mixed. I've had the same issues with Synturia before as Prymont has, namely the whole fact that in the region, advancements and developments take effort. I haven't really, in my opinion, made these issues noticeable before because I wasn't in a position of authority (and later on, Synturia was simply away and thus there wasn't any activity to let these issues rise to the surface). I don't feel that the region is very strict or overly expectant in that regard, as I feel there are multiple ways to achieve that; something that is seen in the nations with many advances as well.

I think we can say that there are some Europan nations that can/could genuinely claim advanced tech and you, SSI. The thing is that these nations don't claim such tech over all different sectors, as far as I know, and that there are clear and solid reasons for them to have this. The Europan nations that can claim it have all been part of the region for years and while you don't have that same seniority, you do do stuff such as help out members with graphics and what not which, I feel, gives you some leeway in that regard. Now, I think we can all agree that the same does not count for Synturia, there isn't a redeeming factor in regards to why he should have the tech. Of course, at this point, he already has it so I feel it wouldn't be the best move to take it all away although the situation as-is is obviously also not perfect; be it as an example for new player to look at or otherwise. 

That being said, there's also no reason to take into account his wants and wishes in this situation, in my opinion. Synturia has sporadic, short moments of activity and while he does respond something back on Discord when you've tagged him, I have no issue with seeing him as an inactive nation for all intents and purposes as he's not exactly an active member of our community. The issue that you state, namely him not thinking this might be the right region for him, could factor into that. And honestly, I'm wondering the same thing. I get the feeling that he may definitely feel more at ease in a region with PMT or FT roleplay, although I can get wanting to stay in Europa for the amazing people, and that may also spur him on more to participate (in those regions) as he'd be with people that are likeminded in that regard.

I don't feel that limiting Andune in order to appease a member that isn't even active is fair. If Synturia doesn't want to feel obsolete and left behind, he should become active and participate in the region. The only one making Synturia feel obsolete and left behind is Synturia himself. Yes, if you don't participate, you're going to end up feeling left behind. He already received far more leeway in regards to news posts, tech, the internals of his nation than what he should have received when looking at the amount of activity and the general setting of the region, no need to give an additional hand before it is earned.

In addition, to give an example, this with the technocratic thing could just as well be changed into, say, Variotan. If another nation would come that has a lot of similarities with me, for example, do we turn them away or ask them to change their nation because it would have a chance of making me feel less unique? Of course not. How many democratic nations are there? How many communists? Etc. Technocratic nations are simply another form in that list. If it makes your nation feel less unique, I get the feeling that the nation hasn't been worked out beyond very shallow levels.

A technocratic nation where the greater good is key will operate far differently from a technocratic nation where the individual is the focus. Or where wealth is the key factor. To give another example in that regard, take Variota. Make a mental copy of it, right. Culture, etc, all retains the same baseline. But now I change the religion of one of the nations from my own special brand of hedonistic Catholicism and change it to Orthodox Christianity... Can you imagine the sheer amount of things that would change?

Now, am I saying we should give Andune everything they want? Of course not. In reality, I see a lot of issues with the nation as well. Let me start off by saying that, when it comes down to it, I'm all for not giving new members advanced tech. Like, at all. We're a modern tech region and within that modern tech, there is enough interesting common technology to play around with and form your society with. In addition, simply giving it instead of making them earn it through activity will ensure that players get bored far more easily, as there's very little to aim at, as well as it not looking good towards nations that are already part of the community and are putting in effort to further their own tech projects.

Beyond that, I see issues with the large GDP Andune claims as well as the extreme faux pas (and in some cases, in clear breach of existing canon) of claiming things such as the world's largest wharf, the world's largest chemical park clusters, '75% of the worldwide ammonia production, 50% of all plastics, and 40% of all bulk base chemicals',  'Made in Andune' has never been the cheapest, but arguably the most reliable and state-of-the-art, the worlds highest ratio of MINT-graduates, a space program with manned flights, a monopoly on the global tuna market and much, much more. I actually laughed out loud about the bit on Andune corporations being so amazing and great and unlike any other monopolizing businesses ever. As someone who has had businesses, worked with businesses and worked for businesses, I can tell you that unicorns would sooner land on Earth to declare they are the proper rulers of Mars before a business would end up like that.

As it stands, I'm advising that we do not place Andune on the map until the nation has been made into something that fits the region's canon and doesn't seem so absolutely wankery. If this sounds somewhat harsh, perhaps. I mean, I can fully understand that the region's canon is hard to spot and understand, as there's no singular place for it, in regards to the manned spaceflights, for example, but this is really pushing it in regards to wanking. 

Tldr: If Synturia wants to not feel left out, he should get active and work on not being left out. He should be happy with the privileged position he has already and doesn't need to be taken into consideration, in my opinion. Andune, at the moment, is a nation that comes close to the epitome of wanking, let's fix that first before placing them on the map.

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Hmm, well this escalated quickly...

 

@Sunset Sea Islands from the small bit of factbook I could find from Synturia, I doubt that my nation is what Synturia wants his to be. The way my factbook is currently written, there may be the one or other corporate group running the government in a city, but overall my nation is neither a syndicate, nor a corporate state.

Also, I am fully aware that the mere nature of the concept I'm following with my nation is often seen as borderline-unfair by many RPers which is why, and my factbook reflects that afaik but I'll make sure to emphasize those parts later on, I typically give myself no natural resources whatsoever with this type nation apart from, depending on the size, fresh water and some tiny bit of land for agriculture. Military is usually small, so the Consortium relies on international partners.

So for all intents and purposes, feel free to place me as a single city-state somewhere. I'd be absolutely fine with that as it probably even fits my RP-style better.

 

Regarding @Variota's take on the issue:

If you have an issue with any of the numbers or claims let me know at any time. They're not final, they're just numbers I wrote in so I'd have a consistent factbook which I assumed was a requirement to be placed on the map. Now, regarding the nature of them, let's go through them one by one: the GDP is around what I'd expect from a first world industrial nation that's rather small but productive. If you want new nations to not exceed a certain GDP that would be a vital bit of info to put up somewhere. The wharf catches many people on the wrong foot, as do the chemical claims. I did, however, go through most if not all factbooks and didn't see any real mentions of a chemical industry anywhere - looked for niche, found a niche (I may have missed a few between them being on NS, the forums, and the wiki, so correct me if I'm wrong). The "wharf" is, as mentioned in the factbook, a "wharf" for pre-assembling large components of chemical plants before shipping them. The numbers themselves are, again, just numbers so we can figure those out anytime. The monopoly on the global tuna market is something I changed in the wiki-factbook, which reminds me that I should be deleting the one on the forum so as not to cause confusion. The MINT graduates and stuff like that, feel free to scratch if you don't like to see.

As for the conglomerates and how they act, well, if things worked like they did iRL, then I suppose a ton of stuff done in RPs would be questionable at best. There would have to be major consequences for decisions or events where the writer simply decides that there won't be any or as many because he/she wants to bring a story forward or try out a new concept. And that's the nice thing about RPs, isn't it? So I merely said, why not have a friendly company culture? I never once wrote that they're going to work towards world peace or cure cancer, which at least one of them definetely wont. For all intents and purposes of a factbook, however, I wrote that they have a historically established corporate identity that's not evil - more of a way to justify them not being targeted by anti-trust laws immediately a century ago.

 

 

In general: if there are any issues with my nation please feel free to let me know on the forums or on discord where you can usually find me at normal European times. I'm more than happy to sort out quirks with my factbook or get some sort of unified history and/or cooperations started with other nations to better justify the type of nation I plan to RP. I'm all for cooperation in this as I'm fully aware that my nation might otherwise ruffle some feathers the wrong way.

What I won't do is change the nature of my nation. If technologically advanced, first world nations played by people new to the region are frowned upon here then I would assume that's an important disclaimer to place somewhere at the top of the nation request form. I understand that technological advancement has to be earned, but expecting every new nation to start out as a massively underdeveloped version of itself also cannot be the solution.

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I guess there's a simple consensus to draw from this: tweak @Andune numbers around a bit until they make sense for a new nation and proceed. Can you help him out, @Variota?

1 hour ago, Andune said:

What I won't do is change the nature of my nation. If technologically advanced, first world nations played by people new to the region are frowned upon here then I would assume that's an important disclaimer to place somewhere at the top of the nation request form. I understand that technological advancement has to be earned, but expecting every new nation to start out as a massively underdeveloped version of itself also cannot be the solution.

I agree, although the term "first world" can be stretched quite far. In my opinion a new nation should not immediately compare to the top 20 RL nations by GDP. Naturally, this is only my opinion and other opinions (especially from admins/senior members) would be appreciated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

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I’d just like to make clear that I do not mean any disrespect, limit or make any unwelcome sentiments to Andune nor to put him/her in a situation to be pressured to change his/her nation’s identity or nature. On the contrary, I believe we have a lot of our ideologies in common. As many have certainly pointed out, there are quite a lot of flaws with my RP, from an incomplete, inconsistent factbook to posts of events without any RP background or buildup, and so on. I suppose it is due to lacking solid, accurate information about my nation and its identity, changing my perception of the nation from PMT to MT, going through IRL stuff, lack of interest in a lot of the region’s RP, and my indecisiveness on simply what I’d want Synturia to be. All of which were pretty much going on since I joined the region and contributed to my doubts of staying and the sporadicness. In the process of reconfiguring Synturia’s industrial, economic, political, etc. background it just so happened that a portion of what I was trying to come up with was what Andune already had, by coincidence. The message to @Sunset Sea Islands was a knee-jerk reaction in regards to that and my recent doubts of staying in the region, as Variota and SSI had noted. Combining that with already been torched for copy pasting in the past, I was concerned that being similar to Andune would cause even more controversy. 

I do agree with a lot of what Variota said. Again, I definitely don’t want to limit or discourage another because of similarities, as such happens IRL a lot I imagine. Along with Andune, I am definitely down for cooperation as well. Given the similarities, it’s possible that we could have some shared history or even have mutually beneficial relations as SSI suggested. I also think that having a conversation between Andune, SSI, and me could be a good idea.

With regards to Andune’s placement on the map, I think that those places on Aurelia would be the best fit. Synturia is quite corporatocratic as well and I believe @Asgeirria‘s Culture has Roman influences  in it if I’m not wrong so I suppose it’s possible to have a Southern Hemisphere Hellenic nation around Aurelia. 

Edited by Synturia (see edit history)
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Not sure if my opinion ways in here but thought I'd let it known,

Allowing nation's that are just beginning in the region to have Advance Tech is by far not a thing that I support. Like what Prymont has said Europa is Modern Tech nothing beyond that really from what I've seen. SSI and a few others have Tech that I would consider Advance compared to others but that's because they've been here a while and they've RP'd it all out on how much they've advance ld forward. I do however agree with Varitoa on what he had posted as well. The GDP is far to large and almost to the point of redicoulous, yes I understand what form of Government your going for but instead of starting out what you want perhaps you should do what the lot of us have and are doing Role-play it out to where you want your nation to be. Now that does not mean automatically make a long RP post of the next two decades and centuries. No it should be a well thought out Role-play like the Project Camano RP that Prymont has done. 

Other than that I have nothing more to say other than if you want to be advance then please do a good role play that covers it all I don't think it's a good idea to start off an Advance Tech nation right off the back when it violates the Europa Cannon.

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Let the man roleplay the nation he wants, if it's not OP or breaking any rules. I don't see GDP per capita affecting or even being mentioned in any roleplays IC. In fact, 98% of stuff in people's factbooks is fluff. I think Mr. Andune writes well, and has a lot of potential to contribute. Why are established nations beefing with new nations having a decent start? If you look at IRL, time as an independant government has very little to do with success. Look at israel, india, and china. They've been around for, like, 60-70 years, and are now global powerhouses. Germany, reunified in 1991. Now an economic powerhouse. Meanwhile Portugal hasn't been subjugated in nearly a thousand years, had a huge colonial empire, and now they're, by contrast, irrelevant. Spain, hasn't been conquered in 500 years, had control over most of the americas for a time, now they're broke. Obviously these are some more extreme examples, but my point stands. It's like Variota said to me a while back, it's not about winning. So why can't a new person with a fairly reasonable request have the start they want, so they can RP the nation they want? And who's it harming?

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I'd love to know where people get the notion that I'm using advanced tech as if it's the year 2050... makes it seem as if half of the people posting here do so completely impulsively without reading anything I wrote so far. Nothing I have written until now would indicate that I'm using anything other than well- and long-established (iRL) modern tech.

 

So I'd appreciate getting less of those impulsive or insulting reactions where people have apparently not read any further than the words 'GDP' and 'technocratic influences' in my factbook. I've said multiple times that I'll be more than happy to work out stuff that goes against regional canon in my factbook with you guys, but so far have gotten no response to that - all I have are not very helpful repetitions.

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@Andune I have read what you have written what I posted was sorta thrown at the other person which made no sense but I am fine with your style and such just want to see it Role-played if you do want to Advance further with more advance tech that's all I was saying. Sorry if it was confusing on what I was saying hopefully this clear it up a bit.

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I'm sure we can work something out where Andune is able to retain his baseline idea while still ensuring it doesn't turn into a Mary Sue situation and so that it fits the regional canon @Sunset Sea Islands. If he doesn't feel like doing it with me, which I can understand as I get the feeling my message was seen as harsher than I intended it to be, I'm sure we can find someone else to do it with. And it's much easier to get someone to change figures and parts of the nation when they're not on the map yet, as there isn't as much attachment to certain locations, etc.

Now, I'll say this here because this counts for other people as well but the biggest issue with claims such as world's largest, so-and-so percent of production, etc. is that there isn't anything backing that up (excepting cases like people using the IRL world's tallest building and such, although that still requires proof that there are 'forces' in your nation that could have built it). The world as it is, isn't filled out completely with nations. And even then, you have to look at the fact that not all (presumably, the majority) nations have a factbook that's WIP. I get wanting to find a niche and what not but you have to look at it like this: Once you put it down on a wiki page or you put it down in your factbook, people who read it will have no choice but to see it as truth. Which you can't prove that it is in these cases. So, instead, keep such claims vague. You don't produce so-and-so percent of something, you produce a large amount. Your nation maintains a high amount of MINT graduates, etc.

Of course, keep in mind that there's a difference between putting something down as fact and putting something down anywhere else. I can totally have Dina Diva claim on the news or in an RP that the HAP is the greatest military in the world, J.D. Karrewasser can claim Varinco is the biggest seller of armaments, etc. Why can you do it there? Because others can call it into doubt. If, say, an Ahranaian general happens to be in the same RP as Dina Diva and wants to tell her she's full of it, that's possible. The same cannot be said about factbooks and wiki pages as claims there have the unwritten requisite that they require evidence of it being realistic.

In regards to the comment of this being a different setting than RL, sure. There's differences between the two situations. How businesses operate isn't one of them. Mom and Pop businesses that provide better products and services than multinationals can't suddenly expand massively even if they're the better business without loaning heavily, etc. As much as there are laws of nature and physics, there are lines and rules that a business follows because it needs to follow them to appease all parties that are part of such a venture. When people expect a 10% interest rate on their savings, the bank can't just suddenly say 'Oh hey guys, we're going to invest in biological hygiene products instead of cluster bombs. Oh yeah, you're also going to be receiving only a 3% interest rate instead, thanks!'. Between shareholders, customers, suppliers, taxes, promoting sustainable growth and required growth and much more, there are simply certain ways, manners and rules that a business will follow.

I'm also not saying you have to be a 'massively underdeveloped' version of yourself. That's what you yourself make of it. What I am saying is that you need to take into consideration that things have to be realistic and fit within the region's canon. That has always been one of the rules of Europa and I imagine, one of the rules in many other NS regions.

@Asgeirria, I actually find it saddening that you think that I'm trying to beef with people or that things such as GDP don't matter. We all know you have issues with parts of the region but that isn't something to project unto others, I'm not trying to push people into having bad starts. I'm merely giving my opinion as a player and an RP moderator so that there can be an educated general consensus by the moderation team in the end in regards to what to do as well as ensuring that this doesn't become a problem later on. Additionally, I strongly disagree with your notion that 98% of stuff in factbooks is fluff in so far as that one has to be sure that what they read in the factbooks fits/matches with the nation and the region it is in. In regards to GDP and GDP per capita: GDP per capita counts as much as regular GDP as the two are connected. What is (partially) calculated, among others, by GDP (and thus by connection, GDP per capita) is your government's budget, for example. These things do matter, even if you cannot see it.

As for your example, I honestly don't get the point you are trying to prove with stating independent governments and what not as nations that join work out their history and such. It's not as if they suddenly pop into existence IC'ly, even if that is what happens OOC'ly. And yes, it's not about winning. If you see this as me or anyone else attempting to win, I feel saddened by the fact that you seem to have that perception. However, the nation as it stands wouldn't be a reasonable request, even if you personally feel that it is. And the thing that it would be harming is the regional canon and the general setting as it stands at this moment. 

EDIT (well, not really, as the post came up when I originally began typing this): Andune, I highly suggest toning that snark down. It won't help you in any way and will only make people think you're a knob gobbler in the end. If this is the tone you'll be taking into the region, I don't see you becoming a good fit. No one is insulting you, etc. In addition, people still have a life besides NationStates.

 

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On 8/5/2018 at 4:34 PM, Andune said:

I'd love to know where people get the notion that I'm using advanced tech as if it's the year 2050... makes it seem as if half of the people posting here do so completely impulsively without reading anything I wrote so far.

This is more a general comment than about you in particular.

One of the most recurring points of conflict is when someone uses experimental IRL technology and scales it up to unrealistic levels. Industrial prototypes and university experiments IRL are one thing. Implementing those emerging technologies everywhere in one's nation is something completely different.

On 7/31/2018 at 10:22 PM, Andune said:

Culture: This isn't really carved into stone. So far my factbook is written with a lot of hellenic references, which are mostly of historical significance. Modern day melting pot with little unique cultural identity is what I end up RPing with on a day-to-day basis. I deliberately left my history out of the factbook so far because I knew I'd just end up rewriting it once my nation found its home.

Climate: Looking at the Köppen map there don't seem to be too many choices other than tropical or subtropical and variations thereof. Typically I have my nation set up in either a cold/temperate/continental climate or oceanic.

Location History: with the hellenic cultural history, I wouldn't mind having some ancient history in the area where I'll be located. The history I had so far for this nation was that it had slowly developed out of a miltitude of city states and small Republics (a minimum of 12, according to my flag) spread across islands, the coastline and dotted areas landinwards.

Some possible locations:

  1. Near Synturias as mentioned by @Sunset Sea Islands, which is tropical but not Hellenic
  2. Up north near Hellenic Rus as mentioned by @Prymont , which is Hellenic by not tropical.
  3. One of the islands near @Imperial States of Europe in Marenesia, since they claim a Spartan culture and there are plenty of islands nearby.
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