Argenland Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well, I see in the Region of Western Europe's home page (http://www.western-europe.info) they have war's rules. This rules is for RP, of course, and I think that we can put this for better our war sistem in Europa becouse I see that the War in Tamurin don't have a finish becouse we haven't troops limit. Introduction: Every nation begins with 250 military points. The next step is to take your country?s total population, multiply that number by 3, and then add it to the base 250 points. For example, if your country has 15 million people, then: 15 x 3 = 45 + 250 = 295 Economic modifier: The next step is to figure in the strength of your economy. Take your end result from the initial step above, and multiply it by the number listed besides your Nation States economy rating. Assuming if our example nation has a ?Strong? economy, then: 295 x 1.7 = 501,5 . Frightening = 2.2 . All-Consuming = 2.1 . Powerhouse = 2.0 . Thriving = 1.9 . Very Strong = 1.8 . Strong = 1.7 . Good = 1.6 . Fair = 1.5 . Reasonable = 1.3 . Developing = 1.1 . Weak = 0.9 . Struggling = 0.8 . Basket case = 0.4 . Imploded = 0.2 Budget modifier: The final step is figuring in how much of your budget is dedicated to national defence. This is determined by looking at your Nation States profile. If the profile of our example country has defence juggled with other issues, then: 501,5 x 0.17% = 82 points . ruled by Dept of Defense = 35% . mostly devoted to defense = 28% . mainly concerned with defense = 22% . defense juggled with other issues = 17% . defense subordinate to other issues = 12% . no mention of defense = 8% . if you don't want to spend any tax money on the army = 5% Your nation?s army is limited by its defence budget. This limit represents how big a standing army your nation can support. This percentage is the ultimate limit of your nation?s capability to raise armies. The limit applies to all kinds of infantry. Defence budget....................army maximum . ruled by defence..................................4% . mostly concerned.................................2.5% . mainly concerned.................................1.8% . juggled................................................. 1.2% . subordinated........................................0.8% . no mention..........................................0.5% . no money............................................0.2% Infantry Unit type: Standard infantry division Points cost: 15 Description:100.000 soldiers divided in 10 regiments which in turn are divided in 10 companies. The squads of the companies mostly contain riflemen but contain troopers armed with anti tank and anti aircraft weapons as well. Unit type: Airborne division Points cost: 5 Unit description: 10.000 soldiers, divided in 10 regiments which in turn are divided in 10 companies. These extremely mobile troops can be dropped from aircraft to start operations behind enemy lines. As these units consist of volunteers they have been better trained then usual. Squads contain mostly riflemen but some troopers are equipped with anti tank and anti aircraft weapons as well. Aircraft have to be bought separately for these troops to be dropped in a war zone. each transport aircraft can transport a standard 350 troopers in one run. If you choose to transport your troops in helicopters, a standard large transport helicopter can carry 40 soldiers to leave room for pilots and some supplies. Unit Type: Special Forces/Commandos battalion Point Cost: 5 Description: 1,000 special forces/commandos capable of carrying out specialized missions such as sabotage, reconnaissance, foreign internal defence, subversion, other military & paramilitary operations, and other operations of a clandestine nature. Special rules: You cannot have more units of special forces then standard infantry divisions. This is to represent their elite status. Ground combat systems Unit Type: Main Battle Tanks (RL type, Abrams tank, Leopard or comparable types) Point Cost: 8 Description: 250 main battle tanks providing mobile firepower for armored formations by closing with and destroying enemy forces using firepower, maneuver, and shock effect. MBTs are capable of engaging the enemy in any weather, day or night on a multi-dimensional, non-liner battlefield. Special rules: Main battle tanks function on their best on the open field. It is possible to enter cities or other populated centres with them but here they are very vulnerable to enemy attacks. This has to be represented in your role playing. Unit type: Light Tanks (RL type Bradley, Sheridan or comparable types)Points cost: 6 MP Description: 250 Light tanks. Light Mobile tank that can get into areas that larger tanks cannot. This tank does not require to be landed but can be pushed out of an aircraft as a large parachute is enough to keep it afloat. Often used for infantry support in mountainous areas. Special rules: Airborne tanks are smaller then a standard MBT and are designed to better cope with difficult circumstances. They have little trouble with urban terrain. Unit Type: Self-propelled Howitzers Point Cost: 4 Description: 100 highly mobile 155-mm, self-propelled howitzers with a cruising range of 200 miles at speeds of up to 38 miles per hour. They are air transportable and provide ranged combat support. The self-propelled howitzers can receive a fire mission, compute firing data, select and take up its firing position, automatically unlock and point its cannon, fire, and then move out all with no external technical assistance in under 60 seconds. This ?shoot and scoot? capability protects the crew from counter-battery fire. Special rules: Artillery without enough standard infantry support/protection can be captured by ANY infantry unit. This is to represent their vulnerability. Unit Type: MLRS Artillery Points cost: 10 points for 100 MLRS units Description: Using rockets instead of conventional rounds, MLRS have the ability to saturate an area with a greater of explosive payload. With a greater range, the only drawback is their increased cost and relative high maintenance cost. Special rules: Artillery without enough standard infantry support/protection can be captured by ANY infantry unit. This is to represent their vulnerability. Unit Type: Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs) Point Cost: 5 Description: 500 lightly armoured, air transportable armoured personnel carriers primarily designed to carry personnel to critical locations on the battlefield and provide fire support to cover their dismounting operations; however, they are also capable of transporting certain types of cargo. The vehicles are able to undertake amphibious operations in streams and lakes; extended cross country travel over rough terrain; and high speed operations on improved roads and highways. Special rules: The APC can carry 10 troopers Unit Type: Jeeps Point Cost: 10 Description: 1250 Jeeps equipped with Double fast firing machine guns. The jeep is mainly a scout vehicle or a transportation car for the senior staff. But it can proof very useful in an infantry fight Unit Type: Combat Service Support (CSS) Point Cost: 10 Description: CSS unit tasks are to arm, fuel, fix, and move the force. These tasks are generally categorized into logistics support, personnel service support, and health services support. Logistics support includes supply, transportation, maintenance, and field services. Personnel service support includes personnel and administration services, such as strength and personnel accounting, casualty reporting, replacement operations, awards, and personnel management; chaplain operations; and enemy prisoner of war (EPW) operations. Health services support includes medical treatment and evacuation of casualties, preventive medicine, and medical supply operations. Special rules: One CSS unit mandatory for every two infantry divisions. Commando?s and airborne infantry don?t need a CSS unit. Air power Unit Type: Standard Fighter (RL type JSF, Raptor or comparable types) Point Cost: 20 Description: 120 supersonic multi-role fighters, these airplanes are the latest in aircraft technology and carries out a number of roles: air superiority, suppression of enemy air defences, reconnaissance, forward air control, close and deep air support, and day and night strike missions during all weather conditions. These planes can be modified to come in three variants: conventional take of and landing aircraft, carrier based variants and a short take off and vertical landing aircraft. Special rules: Aircraft can be fitted to attack ground targets. This costs +5 points. When fighting Fighter bombers they have an distinct advantage in air combat. This has to be represented in your role playing. Unit Type: Fighter bomber ( RL type F-16 or other variants) Point Cost: 15 Description: 120 fighter planes. These advanced tactical fighter aircraft with an emphasis on agility, stealth, super cruise speed, and range are usually the backbone of a nation?s airforce. The primary objective of the aircraft is to establish absolute control of the skies through the conduct of counter-air operations, making it the perfect front-line fighter. It also has an inherent precision ground attack capability. Special rules: Planes are fitted to attack ground targets. When fighting Standard fighters they have a disadvantage in air combat. This has to be represented in your role playing! Unit Type: Stealth fighter (RL type F-117 or comparable types) Point Cost: 40 Description: 120 stealth fighters. These stealth attack and defense suppression aircraft designed to penetrate dense threat environments; however, it?s primary mission is to attack high value targets with pinpoint accuracy and without being detected by hostile radar systems. The aircraft can employ a variety of weapons and is equipped with sophisticated navigation and attack systems integrated into a state-of-the-art avionics suite. Special rules: Stealth aircraft are the only ones which can attack a target in a nation?s homeland without being spotted by AWACS. You can ignore the AWACS special rule. Unit Type: Long range bomber (RL type B-52 or comparable types) Point Cost: 30 Description: 60 long range bombers. Long-range, large-payload, multi-role bombers are designed to perform as strategic nuclear and conventional weapons platforms, carrying nuclear and conventional ordnance with worldwide precision navigation capability. They can also support a Navy in anti-surface and submarine warfare missions. The bomber is capable of flying at high subsonic speeds at altitudes up to 50,000 feet. Special rules: This aircraft can deliver nuclear weapons. The presence of nukes has to be indicated on your army list. Unit Type: Stealth bomber (RL type B-2 or comparable types) Point Cost: 100 Description: 60 B-2 Spirit low-observable, strategic, long-rang, heavy bombers. Its low-observable (?stealth?) characteristics give it the unique ability to penetrate an enemy?s most sophisticated defences and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets. It is capable of all-altitude attack missions up to 50,000 feet, with a range of more than 6,000nm un-refuelled and more than 10,000nm with one refuelling, giving it the ability to fly to any point in the world within hours. It is capable of delivering both conventional and nuclear munitions. However, it is extremely expensive in comparison. Special rules: Stealth bombers ignore the special rules of AWACS and can attack a target without the need to reveal their location. It is almost impossible to shoot down a stealth bomber. This aircraft can deliver nuclear weapons. The presence of nukes has to be indicated on your army list. Unit Type: Sentry AWACS aircraft (RL type E-3 or comparable types) Point Cost: 1 Description: 5 Sentry airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft that provide all-weather surveillance, command, control and communications (C3) needed by military commanders. In a tactical role, the AWACS can detect and track hostile aircraft operating at low altitudes over any terrain and can identify and control friendly aircraft in the same airspace. In the strategic defence role, the AWACS provides the means to detect, identify, track and intercept airborne threats. In support of air-to-ground operations, the AWACS can provide direct information needed for interdiction, reconnaissance, airlift and close-air support for friendly ground forces. The E3 look-down radar has a 360? view of the horizon, and at operating altitudes has a range of more than 320km. The radar can detect and track air and sea targets simultaneously Special rules: A fleet or army equipped with these ?eyes in the sky? cannot fall victim to a surprise attack. All enemy troops in the vicinity must reveal their location or risk intervention by the minister of defence. Unit Type: Tankers Point Cost: 1 Description: 5 tankers, which provide theatre combat support air refuelling. Special rules: Unless you have a base nearby these planes are necessary to keep your aircraft in the air. Therefore, you must have at least one unit of these planes for every unit of air superiority fighters or standard fighters. Unit Type: Multi Role Combat Helicopter (RL type Apache or Hind or comparable types) Point Cost: 20 Description: 100 multi role primary attack helicopters. These is a quick-reacting, airborne weapon system that can fight close and deep to destroy, disrupt, or delay enemy forces. It is designed to fight and survive during the day, night, and in adverse weather conditions throughout the world. Unit Type: Light combat Helicopter (RL type Cobra or comparable types) Point Cost: 15 Description: 100 Light combat helicopter. This is the small brother of the Multi Role Combat Helicopter. The light combat helicopter is much more vulnerable then the Combat helicopter but is fare better manoeuvrable and usually able to avoid serious combat. This type of helicopter is very valuable for scouting missions and urban warfare. Unit Type: Large Transport Helicopter (Type RL Chinook or comparable types) Point Cost: 20 Description: 100 standard large transport helicopters designed for transportation of troops, artillery, ammunitions, fuel, water, barrier materials, supplies and equipment on the battlefield during day, night, visual, and instrument conditions. Other missions include medical evacuation, aircraft recovery, parachute drops, search and rescue, and civil development. Special rules: A large transport helicopter can carry up to 40 soldiers or 2 tank / jeep Unit type: Small Transport Helicopter (Type RL Blackhawk or comparable types) Points cost: 15 Description: 100 standard small transport helicopters designed for quick transportation of troops and small amounts of supplies and ammunition. These helicopters are commonly used for rapid assault missions where single squads can be dropped in seconds leaving the helicopter free to get out of the danger zone very quickly to pick up more troops or provide covering fire with its door gunner. Special rules: A small transport helicopter can cary up to 6 men. Unit Type: Airlift Cargo Aircraft (RL type Hercules or comparable types) Point Cost: 15 Description: 200 airlift cargo aircraft, performing six broad tasks: deployment, employment, redeployment, sustainment, aero medical evacuation, and military operations other than war, such as foreign humanitarian assistance and non-combatant evacuation operations. These aircraft provide the means to rapidly deploy and redeploy forces, on short notice, to any location worldwide. Special rules: Capable of carrying op to 12 tanks / jeeps or 350 soldiers Naval power Unit Type: Frigate (FF/FFG) Point Cost: 8 Description: 4 frigates fulfil a Protection of Shipping (POS) mission as anti-submarine warfare combatants and escorts for carrier battle groups, amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups and merchant convoys in low to moderate threat environments. Special rules: Frigates are the backbone of any navy. To represent this you must have at least one unit of them. Can be fitted with helicopters (FFH/FFGH) for +2 points per unit of 4. These are light transport helicopters. Can be downgraded to a minesweeper for -3 points. Minesweepers are usually older ships which are stripped of weapons to fulfil the role of minesweeper. A frigate in this role is very vulnerable to enemy attack. Unit Type: Aircraft Carrier (CVN) Point Cost: 15 Description: 1 aircraft carrier. Aircraft carriers provide a sustainable, independent forward presence and conventional deterrence in peacetime; operate as the cornerstone of maritime expeditionary forces in times of crisis; operate and support aircraft attacks on enemies; and protect friendly forces and engage in sustained independent operations in war. Carriers support and operate aircraft that engage in attack on airborne, afloat, and ashore targets that threaten free use of the sea and engage in sustained operations in support of other forces. Special rules: The aircraft carrier is not provided with fighters. You have to buy these separately. The ship is able to carry 200 air superiority fighters or standard fighter planes. Unit Type: Escort/Light Carrier (CVE) Point Cost: 10 (One Ship only) Description: Essentially a smaller aircraft carrier, it can fulfil two roles: As Light Carrier it is the model of choice for those nations who simply cannot afford the power of a full Carrier. As Escort Carrier, it provides Naval Fleets with limited aerial support. Special rules: Able to carry 100 planes. These must be purchased separately Unit Type: Battleship (BB) Point Cost: 10 (for 1 ship) Description: These ships cannot be matched in offensive volume, firepower, or Survivability. Equipped with 16" guns, primarily used for shore bombardment these ships are kings of the sea. Unit Type: Battle cruiser (BC) Point Cost: 6 (One Ship only) Description: A compromise between the efficiency of a cruiser and the sheer firepower of a Battleship, a Battle cruiser is basically a scaled-down Battleship that comes at a better price. Unit Type: Destroyer (DD/DDG) Point Cost: 10 Description: 3 destroyers designed to incorporate shaping technologies to reduce radar cross-section to reduce their detect ability and likelihood of being targeted by enemy weapons and sensors. Originally designed to defend against aircraft, cruise missiles, and nuclear attack submarines, the ship can also be used in high-threat areas to conduct anti-air, anti-submarine, anti-surface, and strike operations. The ship is heavily armoured and armed with medium range gun turrets. Can fire over hills and bombard ground targets Unit Type: Cruiser (CA/CG) Point Cost: 10 Description: 3 cruisers built to be employed in support of Carrier Battle Groups, Amphibious Assault Groups, as well as interdiction and escort missions, their mission is two-fold. First, to prevent the employment of weapons against friendly forces by destroying enemy missiles, aircraft, submarines and surface ships. Second, to conduct offensive actions against the enemy through the employment of long-range anti-ship and land attack missiles, and through naval gunfire support. Unit Type: Light Cruiser (CL) Point Cost: 6 Description: 3 small, fast cruisers built mainly to conduct scout missions, or to raid the enemy merchant marine. Comparably poorly armed and armoured, they are no match for bigger ships, which they normally flee from. The underlying strategy here is ?hit?n?run?. Special rules: Very vulnerable to battleships as even one direct hit can utterly destroy a light cruiser. This has to be represented in your role playing! Unity Type: Patrol Missile Boat (PM) Point Cost: 4 Description: 4 Patrol Missile Boats. Not capable for long-range mission, those fast, manoeuvrable and cheap ships are especially designed to protect your coasts. A cheap naval defence for smaller nations, and a valuable coast guard even for larger nations. Unit Type: Ballistic-Missile Submarine (SSBN) Point Cost: 15 Description: 4 ballistic-missile submarines, designed as virtually undetectable undersea launch platforms for nuclear-capable inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). Although their primary purpose is in a nuclear strike capability, they also make formidable adversaries in underwater combat situations. Special rules: The only ship that can be fitted with nuclear missiles. The presence of nukes has to be indicated in your army list. Unit Type: Attack submarine (SSN) Point Cost: 6 Description: 4 advanced stealth multi-mission attack submarines for deep ocean anti-submarine warfare and for littoral (shallow water) operations. The attack submarines is designed to carry out 7 different missions: covert strike by launching land attack missiles from vertical launchers and torpedo tubes; anti-submarine warfare with an advanced combat system and a flexible payload of torpedoes; anti-ship warfare; battle group support with advanced electronic sensors and communications equipment; covert intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance; covert mine laying against enemy shipping; and special operations, including search & rescue, reconnaissance, sabotage, diversionary attacks, and direction of fire support and strikes. Unit Type: Mine Warfare Vessel Point Cost: 5 Description: 5 mine warfare vessels capable of both laying mines and removing them. Unit Type: Amphibious transporters (ATP) Point Cost: 1 Description: 5. These transport ships carry only small weapons and are virtually defenceless against any other type of ship. They are commonly used in convoys and need protection from better armed ships. Special rules: These ships can transport 250 soldiers or 8 tanks / trucks etc Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) Nations that have less than 200 million civilians are NOT authorized to have nuclear weapons! Unit Type: 1 Nuclear Warhead Point Cost: 10 Unit Type: 1 Biological Warhead Point Cost: 4 Unit Type: 1 Chemical Warhead Point Cost: 2 Balistic Shield (Able to take out Enemy rockets) The system its self costs 150 points. To be able to take out an enemy nuke (or any other missile) you must but a counter missile they will cost 3 points a piece. To be totally safe for nuclear attacks you need to buy as many counter missiles as there are WMD missiles. The help you I will display the accent number of nukes, Biological and Chemical weapons in this region below. Link to comment
Haken Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 So Haken Rider's strength would be around 251. Link to comment
Orioni Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Every nation begins with 250 military points. The next step is to take your country?s total population, multiply that number by 3, and then add it to the base 250 points. For example, if your country has 15 million people, then: 15 x 3 = 45 + 250 = 295 I guess that would give me 4771 points to start with. ... Economic modifier: The next step is to figure in the strength of your economy. Take your end result from the initial step above, and multiply it by the number listed besides your Nation States economy rating. Assuming if our example nation has a ?Strong? economy, then: 295 x 1.7 = 501,5 . Frightening = 2.2 . All-Consuming = 2.1 . Powerhouse = 2.0 . Thriving = 1.9 . Very Strong = 1.8 . Strong = 1.7 . Good = 1.6 . Fair = 1.5 . Reasonable = 1.3 . Developing = 1.1 . Weak = 0.9 . Struggling = 0.8 . Basket case = 0.4 . Imploded = 0.2 4771 x 1,8 = 8587,8 Budget modifier: The final step is figuring in how much of your budget is dedicated to national defence. This is determined by looking at your Nation States profile. If the profile of our example country has defence juggled with other issues, then: 501,5 x 0.17% = 82 points . ruled by Dept of Defense = 35% . mostly devoted to defense = 28% . mainly concerned with defense = 22% . defense juggled with other issues = 17% . defense subordinate to other issues = 12% . no mention of defense = 8% . if you don't want to spend any tax money on the army = 5% 8587,8 x 0,17 = 1459,926 ("Defence and Public Transport are secondary priorities") ( My military puppet 'Limburgi' would get 2687,608 points) Link to comment
Meteorola Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Oh my. That is all I can say. Oh my. Link to comment
Jacob Taren Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 An interesting system, but honestly it seems to be a bit too complicated for its own good. Link to comment
Meteorola Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 After thinking about it for a minute, it also seems to favor larger nations. That would allow a new person with a ;large nation to move in and launch a war that tears up the continent. and I agree with the wise man above me^ Link to comment
Orioni Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 After thinking about it for a minute, it also seems to favor larger nations. That would allow a new person with a ;large nation to move in and launch a war that tears up the continent. We could incorporate the postcount as well. Care to write the program for it? Link to comment
Chairman Joaquin Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think that this system, or one like it, would be good. I'm willing to use it if everyone else is... And regarding it giving an edge to big nations; in RL big nations do have an advantage. This could make the RP's more interesting by making smaller nations band together. Link to comment
Tamurin Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 After reading these rules, I have some things to say: I've seen three different kinds of fantasy-/scifi-role-playing games with three different kinds of rules, so I have a little experience with these kind of things. Problem 1: This system is a little complicated, because the base value is a very mathematical one. Also, it's difficult to check on the values of the other nations. Also, the value changes everyday because your nation's population changes everyday. Problem 2: The units you can pick are too few and too standardized. For example: Tamurin uses F-15 fighters, F-4 fighter/bombers, Tornado fighter/bombers, F-111 heavy fighter/bombers and some very old-fashioned Avro Vulcan aircrafts. In the list are just state-of-the-art aircrafts. I could only place the Tornado beneath the F-16 fighter/bomber. But what about my F-15s against the JSF or the F-22? Or my F-111 against the B-52? Or my Avro Vulcan?? We'd have to expand the list massively. Because it's not realistic for my nation to have a state-of-the-art military force (which btw is a total copy of the US forces; I think more in german ways...for example, what do I need strategic bombers for?) Also, we have a Ballistic shield, but no missiles on the list... As for the Navy: The SSN-type Attack submarine is an US-class nuclear sub. What about my German types? 50 metres long, crew: 28 men, main use: Coastline defense, diesel or hydrogen engine. With the ressources you need to build one SSN I could built five to ten of my small subs. Also, irregular troops like partisans are not on the list. Stuff like logistics, maintenance and supply are not on the list. And many more... Problem 3: All this stuff does not determine the outcome of a battle between forces. There's also nothing that tells us these things: - Casualties - Destruction after an artillery bombardement or an air raid - Infrastructure damage - Developing costs (for instance: How come that a nuclear weapon is as cheap as jeeps?? The Manhatten Project was a little more expensive than 1250 jeeps...)... Problem 4: The system gives a huge advantage to big nations. Imperial Tamurin would've been wiped from the map in a couple of days with that kind of opposition. But as we've seen in many wars (Vietnam 1965-75, Afghanistan 1979-88) superior numbers or technology don't ensure victory. According to this system, it would. ... I appreciate the idea, Argenland. But these rules would kill any War-RPs...I liked it the way it was in Tamurin, when people talked to each other via PM and decided what would happen next... And since we're not a bunch of "I-have-to-win-always"-guys, there won't be a problem... Link to comment
Meteorola Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think that this system, or one like it, would be good. I'm willing to use it if everyone else is... And regarding it giving an edge to big nations; in RL big nations do have an advantage. This could make the RP's more interesting by making smaller nations band together. My complaint wasn't that larger nations are more powerful (though Tamurin highlighted that issue well with 'Problem #4', but instead that someone with a population of 2 billion could just move to Europa and start declaring war on just about any nation they felt like. A person like that who arrived in Europa could completely redefine the continent. No country in the real world is able to do that. The rules also discourage the wide range of governments that we have, we would all slowly but surely become capitalistic military dictatorships, because that is what the points favor. Link to comment
Haken Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) 8587,8 x 0,17 = 1459,926 Please don't crush me. Edited January 19, 2005 by Haken (see edit history) Link to comment
Stoned Smurfs Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 this is great to use as a guide but only as a guide. you must also take into effect past RPs. If you been threw a war then you just cant go getting into more. this is something a few need to realise. when the SS vs Katangara wars was fought, one of the agreements of my withdrawl of Katangara was to hand over there air forces as well as their allies. we also accumilated the 6 aircraft carriers as well. the SS is a nation that will attack you by air before entering on the ground. but this is a GREAT guide to go by. Link to comment
Byzantium Nova Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Pot is right. this should be regarded as guide and I see it has many good points. Link to comment
Argenland Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 1) My intentions never was impose this like rules, only like a guide. The real intention is makes somes "war rules" becouse I see that the War in Tamurin isn't logical war... you can see that littles countries can fight versus bigest countries. 2) The rules logical is "the big nation have a powerfull army". In the real life, this is real. In the real life, a great country has a great army and a small country has a small country. 3) Respect the problem #1 of Tamurin: well, we can make an upgrate every month abouts the militaries points and you only can works with this. 4) Respect the problem #3 of Tamurin: Western Europe have "rules for the rules" in their website. I don't post this, but here the post all the thinks that you request. 5) Maybe, we can use any Economic Calculator to help us in the construction of a war rules. Link to comment
Stoned Smurfs Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 1) My intentions never was impose this like rules, only like a guide. The real intention is makes somes "war rules" becouse I see that the War in Tamurin isn't logical war... you can see that littles countries can fight versus bigest countries. 2) The rules logical is "the big nation have a powerfull army". In the real life, this is real. In the real life, a great country has a great army and a small country has a small country. 3) Respect the problem #1 of Tamurin: well, we can make an upgrate every month abouts the militaries points and you only can works with this. 4) Respect the problem #3 of Tamurin: Western Europe have "rules for the rules" in their website. I don't post this, but here the post all the thinks that you request. 5) Maybe, we can use any Economic Calculator to help us in the construction of a war rules. sounds good, we are going to be changing the RP boards and we are going to have more things like this posted. i was sorta rambling in my last post so i hope no one misunderstood me. this is a GREAT guide to go by and can solve many arguements before they even start. another thing we should do is kind of lable the RPs as well, such as the skill level and military specs. some of us like numbers and some of us dont (makes our brain hurt ). but this will all work out and this guide will definitly be used on the boards. thanks for the info Argenland, we need all we can get. Link to comment
Tamurin Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 If everybody agrees - who am I to say no? OK then, if nobody objects, I'll work on this guide a little myself to expand the number of units available. I was the one who complained about it, so I should be the one to do something. Link to comment
Tamurin Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 OK, I did some thinking and used fas.org to improve the list. This is what came out: Please tell me what you think about it! [i'll just write down the things I changed] Infantry Unit type: Standard infantry corps Points cost: 15 Description:100.000 soldiers divided in 10 divisions which in turn are divided in 3 regiments. These units contain riflemen who are equipped with individual weapons (assault rifles, machine guns, pistols, grenades etc.) and anti tank- and anti aircraft-weapons. They are mobilized and use trucks to move. Changed the order, 'cause 100.000 is a little much for one division. Also modernized the equipment; this sounded too much like WW2-infantry. NEW Unit type: Partisan group Point cost: 5 Description:1000 partisans, divided in at least 20 groups with variable strength. These units use individual weapons, explosives and captured weapons. They?re using hit-and-run-strategies to weaken the strength of the supply lines or to strike against civilian and military targets behind the frontlines. Special: Cannot be used at frontlines. Can evade any forces except special forces. New unit Unit type: Airborne division Points cost: 5 Unit description: 10.000 soldiers, divided in 3 regiments which in turn are divided in 5 bataillons. These extremely mobile troops can be dropped from aircraft to start operations behind enemy lines. As these units consist of volunteers they have been better trained than usual. Squads contain riflemen who are equipped like the ?Standard infantry corps?, but they carry more weapons and supplies to sustain themselves for long periods. Aircraft have to be bought separately for these troops to be dropped in a war zone. Each transport aircraft can transport a standard 350 troopers in one run. If you choose to transport your troops in helicopters, a standard large transport helicopter can carry 40 soldiers to leave room for pilots and some supplies, a small helicopter can carry 8 soldiers. Changed some details Ground combat systems NEW Unit Type: Obsolete Main Battle Tanks (RL type M48, T-60 or comparable) Point Cost: 6 Description: 250 obsolete main battle tanks. Description similar to ?Main Battle Tanks? Special: Compared to ?Main Battle Tanks?, the obsolete tanks have less armour, less speed, less maneuverability and less combat range. To incorporate older models, 'cause not everyone has the ressources or the technology to have state-of-the-art stuff, I added some older designs NEW Unit type: Wheeled light-armoured tanks (RL type LAV, Luchs or comparable) Point Cost: 5 Description: 250 wheeled light-armoured tanks, used for direct infantry support and reconnaissance. They are faster than light tanks (70-90 mph) and have a larger combat range. They?re mostly equipped with a single machine gun (12.7 mm or 20 mm) and their armour is only capable of withstanding infantry weapons like assault rifles and machine guns. Special: They have problems in difficult terrain. Best used in open terrain. I was missing wheeled armed vehicles. Unit Type: Self-propelled Howitzers (M109, PzH 2000, etc.) Point Cost: 4 Description: 100 highly mobile 155-mm, self-propelled howitzers with a cruising range of 200 miles at speeds of up to 50 miles per hour. They are air transportable and provide ranged combat support. The self-propelled howitzers can receive a fire mission, compute firing data, select and take up its firing position, automatically unlock and point its cannon, fire, and then move out all with no external technical assistance in under 60 seconds. This ?shoot and scoot? capability protects the crew from counter-battery fire. Special rules: Any tank unit can easily destroy an artillery unit, because the ?direct-fire? of artillery is useless against armoured vehicles. Changed some details and the Special rules. When I was in the army I was in an artillery bataillon and any infantry unit trying to ?capture? us would?ve been wiped from the earth?it would've been easy to change to "Direct Fire" and blow them some HE-grenades in their mids. NEW Unit type: Howitzers (M777 LW 155, FH 155, etc.) Point Cost: 2 Description: 100 towed 155 mm-Howitzers. Shooting range: 30-40 km, minimum range: 2.5 km. Special: Cannot escape an attack by motorized forces. Is defenceless against tank units. Added conventional towed howitzers which are still widely used. Unit Type: MLRS Artillery Points cost: 10 points for 100 MLRS units Description: Using rockets instead of conventional rounds, MLRS have the ability to saturate an area with a greater of explosive payload. With a greater range, the only drawback is their increased cost and relative high maintenance cost. Special rules: Is defenceless against tank units. Changed the special rules. Unit Type: Combat Service Support (CSS) Point Cost: 10 Description: CSS unit tasks are to arm, fuel, supply, fix, and move the force. These tasks are generally categorized into logistics support, personnel service support, and health services support. Logistics support includes supply, transportation, maintenance, and field services. Personnel service support includes personnel and administration services, such as strength and personnel accounting, casualty reporting, replacement operations, awards, and personnel management; chaplain operations; and enemy prisoner of war (EPW) operations. Health services support includes medical treatment and evacuation of casualties, preventive medicine, and medical supply operations. Special rules: One CSS unit mandatory for every two ground units. Commando?s and airborne infantry don?t need a CSS unit. Changed the special rules. Air force NEW Unit: Air superiority fighter with 80s technology (RL F-15, MiG-29, Eurofighter or comparable types) Point Cost: 15 Description: 120 supersonic multi-role fighters with a little older technology. They?re still capable of performing all kinds of air superiority tasks, but their chances against State-of-the-Art Fighters are low. Special: Can be upgraded for ground attacks by +5 points. NEW Unit: Air superiority fighter with 60s technology (RL F-4, F-8, MiG-21 or comparable types) Point Cost: 10 Description: 120 supersonic multi-role fighters with old technology. They?re capable of performing all tasks but have no chance in combat against modern anti-aircraft-systems or modern fighters. Special: Can be upgraded for ground attacks by +5 points. Added those two because those fighters are still widely used and not everyone is able to build or buy Raptors. Unit Type: Stealth bomber (RL type B-2 or comparable types) Point Cost: 100 Description: 20 B-2 Spirit low-observable, strategic, long-rang, heavy bombers. Its low-observable (?stealth?) characteristics give it the unique ability to penetrate an enemy?s most sophisticated defences and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets. It is capable of all-altitude attack missions up to 50,000 feet, with a range of more than 6,000nm un-refuelled and more than 10,000nm with one refuelling, giving it the ability to fly to any point in the world within hours. It is capable of delivering both conventional and nuclear munitions. However, it is extremely expensive in comparison. Special rules: Stealth bombers ignore the special rules of AWACS and can attack a target without the need to reveal their location. It is almost impossible to shoot down a stealth bomber. This aircraft can deliver nuclear weapons. The presence of nukes has to be indicated on your army list. Changed the number. 60 B-2 for 100 would've been a little cheap; the US have only 21 and they're enough (for the USAF and for the secretary of finances). Unit Type: Sentry AWACS aircraft (RL type E-3 or comparable types) Point Cost: 20 Description: 5 Sentry airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft that provide all-weather surveillance, command, control and communications (C3) needed by military commanders. In a tactical role, the AWACS can detect and track hostile aircraft operating at low altitudes over any terrain and can identify and control friendly aircraft in the same airspace. In the strategic defence role, the AWACS provides the means to detect, identify, track and intercept airborne threats. In support of air-to-ground operations, the AWACS can provide direct information needed for interdiction, reconnaissance, airlift and close-air support for friendly ground forces. The E3 look-down radar has a 360? view of the horizon, and at operating altitudes has a range of more than 320km. The radar can detect and track air and sea targets simultaneously Special rules: A fleet or army equipped with these ?eyes in the sky? cannot fall victim to a surprise attack. All enemy troops in the vicinity must reveal their location or risk intervention by the minister of defence. Increased the cost. A sentry is a very expensive aircraft. Unit Type: Tankers Point Cost: 5 Description: 5 tankers, which provide theatre combat support air refuelling. Special rules: Unless you have a base nearby these planes are necessary to keep your aircraft in the air. Therefore, you must have at least one unit of these planes for every unit of air superiority fighters or standard fighters. Increased the cost. NEW Unit: Combat Service Support (Air) Point Cost: 10 Description: Serves the same purpose as the CSS for the ground units. Special rules: Capable of maintaining one air unit. Air Force without CSS?? I don't think so. Any aircraft without a sophisticated supply infrastructure is just a useless piece of metal. Navy Unit Type: Aircraft Carrier (CVN) Point Cost: 15 Description: 1 aircraft carrier. Aircraft carriers provide a sustainable, independent forward presence and conventional deterrence in peacetime; operate as the cornerstone of maritime expeditionary forces in times of crisis; operate and support aircraft attacks on enemies; and protect friendly forces and engage in sustained independent operations in war. Carriers support and operate aircraft that engage in attack on airborne, afloat, and ashore targets that threaten free use of the sea and engage in sustained operations in support of other forces. Special rules: The aircraft carrier is not provided with fighters. You have to buy these separately. The ship is able to carry 100 air superiority fighters or standard fighter planes and 20 helicopters. An aircraft carrier needs an escort of at least four destroyers or frigates to be protected against missile attacks. Changed the special rules. No aircraft carrier is capable to handle 200 aircrafts. The Nimitz-class carry about 80. Also I added that they need protection by small ships. An aircraft carrier never travels alone because he's just a big target. After the destruction of the "Sheffield" in the Falkland War, it was clear that even an old missile was able to destroy a modern ship. Fire twenty Exocets against a carrier and it's gone. If we don't have rules about the protection of carriers or the other big ships nobody would even consider buying small ships, and a missile frigate wouldn't stand a chance against a carrier. These rules are for balance. Unit Type: Escort/Light Carrier (CVE) Point Cost: 10 (One Ship only) Description: Essentially a smaller aircraft carrier, it can fulfil two roles: As Light Carrier it is the model of choice for those nations who simply cannot afford the power of a full Carrier. As Escort Carrier, it provides Naval Fleets with limited aerial support. Special rules: Able to carry 50 planes and 10 helicopters. These must be purchased separately. A light aircraft carrier needs an escort of at least two destroyers or frigates to be protected against missile attacks. Unit Type: Battleship (BB) Point Cost: 10 (for 1 ship) Description: These ships cannot be matched in offensive volume, firepower, or Survivability. Equipped with 16" guns, primarily used for shore bombardment these ships are kings of the sea. Special rules: A battleship needs an escort of at least four destroyers or frigates to be protected against missile attacks. Unit Type: Battle cruiser (BC) Point Cost: 6 (One Ship only) Description: A compromise between the efficiency of a cruiser and the sheer firepower of a Battleship, a Battle cruiser is basically a scaled-down Battleship that comes at a better price. Special rules: A battlecruiser needs an escort of at least two destroyers or frigates to be protected against missile attacks. Changed the special rules. NEW Unit: Small submarine (RL German class 206) Point cost: 2 Description: 4 small submarines for coastal use or use in shallow waters. Crew strength: 30, Diesel-engines (need of refuel!), noisy. But armed with state-of-the-art torpedoes. Special rules: Cannot attack in deep ocean. Cannot outrun an SSN or SSBN when operating under water. Many nations use small subs, only the superpowers have things like SSN or SSBN. What about us tiny small ones?? NEW Unit: Tanker Point Cost: 2 Description: Big sh*t transporting fuel for non-nuclear-powered ships. Can refuel 2 battleships/battlecruisers/light carriers, 4 cruisers, 8 frigates/destroyers/light cruisers or 16 other ships. Non-nuclear-powered ships just need those. NEW Unit: Naval harbour with combat support services Point Cost: 75 Description: Fully equipped naval harbour, capable of maintaining 8 huge ships (battleship/battlecruiser/carrier/light carrier/SSN/SSBN), 16 medium ships (cruiser/frigate/destroyer/ light cruiser) and 32 other ships. A standard harbour is for merchants and fisher boats. A real naval harbour has to be build. Again, the old system does not incorporate infrastructure and logistics here. Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) Nations that have less than 20 million civilians are NOT authorized to have nuclear weapons! Changed the number of people necessary. It's just not realistic when you think that nations like Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Israel etc. have those weapons or research them or did perform research. To build a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon you have to perform a research project first. Just building something like that is a little too easy. This kind of technology is not available for everyone so there has to be an obstacle to overcome - or we'd all have nuclear weapons like tanks. Unit Type: 1 Nuclear Warhead Research Cost: 150 Point Cost: 10 Unit Type: 1 Biological Warhead Research Cost: 100 Point Cost: 4 Unit Type: 1 Chemical Warhead Research Cost: 50 Point Cost: 2 These weapons must be delivered by rockets or aircrafts. Missiles There was no chapter about missiles, so I added one with the most basic types of rockets. To build missiles you have to perform a research project first. Same reason as for the WMD. NEW Unit: Short-range missile (SRM) Research Cost: 20 Unit Cost: 2 Description: Range: 100 miles. Capable of delivering one conventional or WMD-warhead. Can be launched from the ground, from sea or by aircraft. NEW Unit: Intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) Research Cost: 50 Unit cost: 5 Description: Range: 1000 miles. Capable of delivering one conventional or WMD-warhead. Can be launched from the ground, by SSBNs or by a bomber. NEW Unit: Intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) Research Cost: 100 Unit cost: 10 Description: Range: worldwide. Capable of delivering one WMD-warhead. Must be launched from a missile silo complex. Special: Can be upgraded by the MIRV-Project. NEW Unit: MIRV Research Cost: 50 (2), 100 (4), 150 (8), 200 (16) Description: Upgrade for ICBMs. After that, ICBMs will be able to carry more than one warhead. The exact number of warheads depends on the money spent on the research. 16 warheads per rocket are the maximum. Balistic Shield (Able to take out Enemy rockets) This system can only be enabled if a Research project is performed. This research costs 500! (It is that expensive because even the US have problems with it and it costs a LOT of money). Same reason as for WMD. The system its self costs 150 points. After that you have built an infrastructure of radar stations and control stations. You have to buy the intercept rockets separately. You need one intercept-rocket to destroy one incoming rocket. NEW Unit: SRM-Interceptor Unit Cost: 2 Description: Can intercept SRMs and nothing else. NEW Unit: IRBM-Interceptor Unit Cost: 5 Description: Can intercept SRMs and IRBMs. NEW Unit: ICBM-Interceptor Unit Cost: 10 Description: Can intercept any incoming rocket. Future Weapons Future weapons are something that doesn?t exist presently like Orbital Weapons platforms, a missile shield with phasers, anti-matter-torpedoes or something like that. Made that to incorporate the Orbital Weapons platforms of Byzantinum Nova and Sevrun. Even if they abandon them, they still have the technology to build them. So, what do you think? Where are changes necessary? Link to comment
Argenland Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 I found somes programs that Western Europe uses to know your Militaries Points with facilities and other that is a Battles-Resolvers. Info here: http://wetools.wgvnet.vze.com/ Link to comment
Meteorola Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I'm concerned about how complex the units are, what if instead of making the points be purchasing/maintaining of individual units we instead make the points represent relitive streangth of the five branches of a military? It would be simplification, and it would cover everything- even allow for diffrent nations to havbe different technology, and different names for thier units. I'm also still concered about the points favoring certain kinds of governments. Europa claims to be open to all, but would allow the more liberal governments to be crushed in any war, true of the real world, but not to this extreme. Link to comment
Niederoestereich Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 *What would be the deal with units not as large as the ones listed, i.e 120-150 tanks instead of the 250, would they be cheapers point wise. or 60,000 troops instead of the 100,000. What about the type of weaponary used, e.g an f18 hornet as a fighter would not be around the same price as other fighter aircraft such as f14s or the russian fulcrum. I think that not all countries would use the same weaponary, nor have the same strengths in each division/corps/army *Would terrain have a say in outcomes, like infantry defending again'st tanks in a dense forest, or airbourne troops landing/fighting in swamplands Link to comment
Tamurin Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The proposal of Meteorola sounds very good to me. We just split the points to the departments of the military. Each department could be split up into sub-categories, so everyone could specialize. This system would not define forces by numbers or types, just the power (which comes from the combination of number and type). It's easier to do and we could still have very individual forces. I did some thinking and this came out: Departments: - Army # Infantry # Special Infantry (e.g. infiltration units, partisans etc.) # Tanks # Artillery (e.g. howitzers, rocket artillery) # Combat helicopter # Transport helicopter - Air Force # Fighters # Fighter/bombers # Strategic bombers # Reconnaissance & Special (e.g. U-2, E-3 etc.) # Transporters & Tankers - Navy # Carriers # Battleships # Medium class ships (cruisers, destroyers, frigates) # Attack subs # Missile subs # Support ships (Patrol boats, Mine boats, Transporters) - Missiles # Short-range # Medium-range # Intercontinental - WMD # Nuclear # Biological # Chemical - Special weapons # For each weapon like Missile defense or Orbital weapons: One category. Everyone can place his/her points according to his/her wishes. It should then be obvious, that a fighter force of 200 could easily take a bomber force of 50. The technology involved should only be relevant for RP (if you use F-15 or F-22 is irrelevant. If the F-15-fighter force is stronger than the F-22-force, it can be explained by pilot experience, numbers, technical problems etc.). So everyone would be free to choose his kind of tech he wants (and I can keep my small coast subs). Wars would still be fought by RPs and not by programs, but now we'd have some guidance in how a war should turn out. What do you think about this? Link to comment
Argenland Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Well I think this: - Every month: Europa, Orioni or other member of the EurGov (or maybe a member with autorization can make this) an upgrate with the MPs in a post. http://invisionfree.com/forums/wgvnet/inde...?showtopic=2023 - Every month: every nation must upgrate his/her army in an official post with the points. http://invisionfree.com/forums/wgvnet/inde...?showtopic=1422 Link to comment
Stoned Smurfs Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 i am not in the EuropaGov but i am the RP mod along with BN. we can definitly do this im gonna make another thread with this MP points and get everyones input. after that we can then start collecting the RPers MP points. Link to comment
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