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Greater Serbia Blockade/Liberation OOC Thread

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I'd like @Greater Serbia to respond to my post before I did anything further but I appreciate that he's busy right now.

Suffice to say Tagmatium is NOT COOL with genocide but at least wants to see if there can be any attempt to avert a war.

But will be more than happy to pitch in if it comes to it.

Even a peaceful solution will need to have the perpetrators punished.


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GS is away currently. I think he said it was a holiday, or work related. Which is why I've been a bit slow with this myself. I'd like him to return fully, before getting into it properly. 

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  • 1 month later...

As suggested by @Variota on Discord, I'll leave some comments here on how Prymont will be involved in this RP.

First of all, I'll be condemning @Greater Serbia along with everyone else on the grounds of slavery and being a sh*tty nation. I could've done this much sooner, but I've been wanting to wait for an OOC thread to come up, which it has now, and then it's not been a priority due to the writing absences of GS and @Adaptus I'm also waiting on a 'verdict' from GS regarding what spy plane runs find out about his country; I'll be utilising the SR-71 before its retirement at the end of the year for this purpose. This will lead to some official involvement from Prymont.

Due to excessive military spending in the Hellenic Rus and the Verde Blockade, I won't be sending troops from any of my armed forces in combat roles. However, to push my propaganda agenda of Prymont carrying out positive humanitarian aid in the Hellenic Rus, I'll likely send a few hundred soldiers and some charity volunteers to provide food, medicine, and materials for Bosniaks, and to help secure and evacuate them. 

Now, as for the topic of much discussion - where they get evacuated to. It makes sense for most of/all of them to go to @Sayf as he's the nearest, safest country for them to go to. However, with Prymont considering central Argis to be an absolute sh*thole, IC I'm not fussed where they end up. Seeing as there's only 600k of them, if the infrastructure exists, it could be satisfactory for them to remain in Sayf. However, as I've mentioned on Discord, they'd still be close to Greater Serbia and there's cause for concern there as GS could be go a bit nuts and try to get them back, or inflict more harm upon them or whatever. So, it could be preferable to move them further away. Now, you need to consider where they could go. 
@Mauridiviah can f*ck off with his idea of forcing them into a new 'ethnostate'. As far as Prymont is concerned, the safest places they could end up are @Girkmand [TRIDENT and ATARA friend] or @Ahrana [close neighbour, susceptible to Prymontian influence], which obviously depends upon them allowing it. Creating a new state from the ground up or taking land from another NPC is far too complicated and costly, and also has OOC opposition so good luck fighting that one Mads. 

Edited by Prymont (see edit history)
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The SSI will not participate in any form of armed combat. Even if it wanted to, it would lack the military power and transport capabilities to do so.

The SSI is ready to

  • dispatch humanitarian aid workers
  • provide unbiased medical aid regardless of national allegiance
  • offer temporal asylum to Bosniaks
  • provide neutral meeting grounds for peaceful talks and negotiation

This furthermore rises the question whether the Red Cross or any analogues exist in our world. (Looks at @Magnaeus) Should this not be the case, I wouldn't mind setting up a "Red Sun" medical aid organisation.

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The Federation of Ahrana will not support a War or any Combat situation involving Ahrana Troops, however I am willing to be in a position to stand against slavery and ethnic cleansing or whatever you will call it.

The Federation is willing to offer and do the following though,

Offer Political Asylum

Send Humanitarian Aid and Workers

Help set up and be part of Peaceful Talks with all sides

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Here's what I plan to do:

My country will probably be declaring war on @Greater Serbia, as we can't militarily intervene in places if we haven't declared war. We will be planning to provide logistical and limited combat support to the region, probably adjoining ourselves to Sayfi forces. It will be extremely controversial in the nation, but inaction will not save Bosniak lives.

Evacuating the Bosniak population to Sayf and Sayf's friendly neighbor's should probably be the priority--- Sayf is a muslim nation that is willing to protect them and has the ability to do so. I am very aware of @Prymont's concern that the Bosniaks would be geographically close to Greater Serbia, but to that I have to reply that there are still Jews and gays in France despite the Nazis' best attempts to exterminate them, and now it'd be unthinkable that the germans would try again. There's also the fact that Croatia and Serbia, nations that in the 1990s tried to wipe each other off the map, still currently exist and even share a border. Proximity to Greater Serbia is irrelevant as long as the Bosniaks are protected by a capable modern army, such as Sayf's.

I know Prymont told me to f*ck off because I believe in making a Bosniak State in central Argis, but I won't be reciprocating that and instead say that a free Bosniak state is the best possible outcome for the Bosniaks themselves. First of all, it wouldn't be a true ethnostate because non-Bosniaks would obviously live there, it'd just be a small area that was majority Bosniak, making it more similar to Montenegro than Wakanda. 

Second of all, the most effective way to protect the Bosniaks from another genocide and allow Bosniaks worldwide (this is actually an important point; Prymont is using the rough number I calculated of the Bosniaks in GS, but considering they're just muslim slavs there's probably many more of them out there) to have a place to go that will never turn against them. The country that is most similar to them is currently Sayf, and they don't even speak similar languages as rather unsuprisingly the main language of the Bosniaks is... Serbian. Setting up a Bosniak state would end the cycle of a discriminated group going elsewhere just to be discriminated again, like what happened to the Jews irl. 

Sayf and I actually discussed where a Free Bosnia could be and we agreed that we could set one up easily in a sparcely populated and small area of Sayf's neighboring nation (which is meant for future expansion purposes) in a peaceful manner. We're not talking about a very big nation; perhaps with a population of two million people at most and the size of say, Albania or even smaller. It will already have pre-existing infrastructure although it'll probably not be enough, in that case the Bosniaks, many of whom have been robbed of a formal education, can build it themselves which will allow them to be employed and make a living. The area would also be pretty close to where we'd be sending the Bosniaks temporarily so transportation wouldn't be an issue. One more thing, Prymont said that we'd be "forcing" the Bosniaks into Bosnia. That's a massive misreprenstation of what would actually happen. If we look at similar examples throughout history, you'd notice that modern Israel, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Croatia, Slovenia, Italy, France, Germany, Poland, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Russia were not formed by having other nations massively deport their respective populations. Instead, the populations of these nations had population exhanges with each other and other nations (some more peaceably than others) and within the year you had culturally homogenous nations where there once had been none. That's because these people willingly moved there because living in places that are really different from you and would hardly accept you is, well, worse than living in a place that accepts and wants you. The exact same thing would happen with the Bosniaks and Bosnia.

Finally, creating a new state will probably not be as costly to individual nations as is thought. This is because the people who would be building Bosnia wouldn't be Sayf or Adaptus or Mauridiviah; It'd be Sayfis, Adaptons and Mauridivians. Private individuals and companies investing in a new nation. This type of infrastructure investment is what drives the Chinese economy (Which is why China has so many ghost cities) and is probably would drive the early Bosniak economy as well. As you can probably tell, this will create profit and boost the economy, which will in turn positively impact the world economy, thereby bringing in more tax money for everyone. Bosnia would pay for itself and then some, eventually. Re-settling them somehwere across the world or the continent would be a burden that the governments involved would have to bear, on top of the welfare payments that the Bosniaks would likely need just to survive. Bosniaks are very uneducated in general, so they would have trouble being competitive in a market of some developed nation like SSI or Prymont (or even the Hellenic Rus), and they would therefore end up either unemployed and on government welfare, or on the crappy manual labor jobs that don't pay very much. That completely ignores the costly bureaucratic and logistical nighmare that would be to divide, process, and re-settle the entire Bosniak population of GS in nations across the world. In that case, making a whole new country would probably be less complicated since all you gotta do is set up a small government and then let them work it out. By the way, they don't speak your language and will likely have trouble learning it (if they even do at all, the European migrants from North Africa haven't bothered) since they can't even write in their own language.

Oh, and @Prymont, your idea has OOC opposition so good luck fighting that one Pry.

But seriously, Derthalen being a thing receives OOC opposition on a near-daily basis but he's still around. A Free Bosnia has very powerful patrons (@Adaptus and @Sayf have declared themselves for it on the discord, including private chats) and since they're going to be the main boots on the ground, I don't believe that the creation of a Free Bosnia as described above (or similar) could be stopped by the small number of mainly humanitarian forces sent from countries that oppose the measure. In the end, such nations would be in opposition to the Bosniak's best interests anyway, and I think you know, considering your suggestions were places that were either your friends or could be easily influenced by you.

Thus, the Mauridivian government position is that a Free Bosniak State is created and allow, through self-determination, to choose its own path, rather than not even having that as an option at all.


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Fulgistan is prepared to commit significant assets militarily to the liberation of the Bosnian refugees and to any other objectives of the coalition against Greater Serbia. If necessary, the contingent of personnel and equipment can be quite substantial, depending on the needs of both @Sayf and @Adaptus in completing the war aims of the blockade coalition. In addition, Fulgistan is prepared to declare war on Greater Serbia if it appears that the coalition has aims beyond simple blockade. Fulgistan, when discussions eventually begin IC, will likely not support the creation of a Bosnian ethnostate, but will aid in any possible way in the evacuation of refugees and the repatriation of Bosnians to Sayf, Fulgistan itself, or any other willing, extant sovereign state, excepting rogue states like Derthalen and the ISE.

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I'll list it like @Sunset Sea Islands did, as it's quite easy to keep track of.

Limonaia is willing to:

  • Accept Bosnian refugees for temporary asylum until a permanent solution is possible.
  • Continue already ongoing blockade efforts.
  • Negotiate with @Greater Serbia for a peaceful solution to the conflict.
  • Commit parts of the airforce, navy and possibly an armoured battalion to assist the military of @Sayf and @Adaptus should the conflict escalate to war.
Edited by Limonaia (see edit history)
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I'll list it up as well. Seylos would be willing

  • Provide logistical support as a "local power" using the Seylosian navy and air forces.
  • Special forces support
  • Long range tactical support in the form of missiles, planes, etc.
  • Taking in refugees
  • Humanitarian aid


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I have one more thing to add to my things I'm willing to do with this issue, everyone knows how the Structure of the Federation works by now I hope and know that there was two Autonomous Republican Provinces but now one. The Bosnians that do end up in Ahrana will be given their own Autonomous Region in one of the Federal Republics most likely in the FR Tatani which has many ethnic groups like the rest of the Federal Republics. Inside Ahrana the Bosnians would be like all Minority Ethnic Groups are granted a special status that protects them from harm and such.

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So, What have we done?

  • Sanctioned the sh*t out of Greater Serbia. Will it help? I honestly don't know but there's that.
  • Set up a charity/fund with the profits we will be making from the sanctions. Of course, the fund only has so much as we can take from the sanction so if there's very little we were able to sanction, there will be very little in the fund.

What will we be looking at doing?

  • Set up a humanitarian effort to evacuate Bosniaks and provide them asylum in Variota. For the most part, this will be permanent asylum. We have plenty of rural areas where they can find work in agriculture, mines they can work in, etc. Temporary asylum would basically only cost money, this is a win-win for both sides as Bosniaks would be in a safe, wealthy nation and we're able to force-revitalize areas with the Bosniaks.
  • Move against an ethno-state popping up near Sayf and the general GS area. The government has entirely no reason to trust the Sayfi's/Sayfians? as far as it can throw them and the proximity to GS isn't exactly great. I heard some mention of Israel as an example. Think hard guys, that really worked out for everyone right? Wrong.
  • Instead, the Variotan government will promote the idea of a Bosniak state across the Keelpijppassage, there's this lovely triangle-ish area where they could frolic around.
  • Additionally, promote the idea of said state falling under the shared scrutiny of TRIDENT nations and Adaptus. Let's face it, these two parties are best equipped to ensure such a state running properly. Yes, TRIDENT is a defensive military alliance but as the nations are already working together, this removes a barrier. This would also allow for Adapton-TRIDENT ties to improve, which I believe both sides have somewhat looked at as being wanted.
  • Offer peacekeeping forces. This ties into the humanitarian effort, as having peacekeeping forces in the area would allow us to fulfill that effort better. We will not be declaring war because unlike others, our government actually listens to its citizens and are, you know, politicians. Variotans don't want to offer their sons up to die in Greater Serbia, quite simple. And why should they?
  • Offer a neutral place for negotiations, should they happen. Will we be seen as neutral? Who knows but the offer will be there.

I believe that mostly covers it. I'll add on points if I think of something. Now, something I'd like to make a note of: There's no worldwide Bosniak population. There's never been a mention of one, no one has them listed in their nation from my knowledge, etc.. For all intents and purposes, this is the only group of Bosniaks in existence. If current players suddenly want to change their nation to include Bosniaks, go ahead but beyond that, there's not some random amount of Bosniaks floating around.

Also: But Variota, relocating the Bosniaks to your nation and granting them permanent asylum will be extremely expensive because they don't speak your language and what not! Look at Europe! Europe is extremely soft towards foreigners. Variotans do not share the same mindset, we do not believe in the multicultural society and what not. Indeed, pussyfooting around with people is extremely expensive and goes nowhere. Taking a harsher, tough love stance is far cheaper and will achieve better results, even if the Bosniaks will not like it in the beginning. But, if current affairs are to show anything, it's that migrants generally won't like anything anyway or are already planning on ensuring they're able to fully participate and partake in their new culture and society. Additionally, revitalizing the areas, which will happen by placing the Bosniaks there and ensuring they have jobs among other things, will ensure that some of the cost if not most or all of the cost will be recouped through various means.

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We don't really have any facilities in place that would allow us to send military support; our military is overwhelmingly made up of conscripts and reservists who can only really be mobilized in the event of a full-scale military conflict. The air force and navy are a different story, though. I've thought about establishing an international volunteer brigade of sorts, but that idea's never gone anywhere, and I don't know if it's something I want to do.

Independent support for this operation in the physical form is highly unlikely (this includes materiel, boots on the ground and relief aid). This may change if TRIDENT becomes officially involved, similarly to the Verde Blockade, as we will answer a call to arms. Subsequently, we will partake in any trade sanctions or blockades that may occur.

@Prymont Bosniak refugees are definitely safer in Girkmand, but the shifting domestic political situation may affect that later on. Nowhere to the scale of state sanctioned mass murder, but more to what we're seeing in Europe, with the rise in far-right sentiment among the civilian population due to the refugee crisis. The conclusion of the hostage situation will likely rile up both Slavic and 'Saxon' Girkmandians alike. A significant influx of eastern Slavic refugees would play into that nicely, I suppose.

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Sayf will dedicate all of it's time and resources to liberate the Bosniak people and give them a home either a Bosniak ethnostate or a home in Sayf. Sayf is the most logical, practical, and best place overall for the Bosniaks to reside, if you disagree, you are simply wrong.

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  • 2 months later...

The mod team has discussed it and we've decided that it's best for this RP to die, there's nothing to gain from continuing it. I've locked the Chariot of Civility, as that seems to be the primary thread about this, should Greater Serbia ever return and wants to restart this all, we can unlock it or new threads can be created. Instead, we've come up with a reasonable (and potentially interesting) way to finish this instead. It's all being worked out, give us some time to flesh and iron it all out.

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