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A Great Europan Collapse


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So this has been an idea that I floated a little while ago, and it seems a least a few people find it worth exploring for RP. The idea being that any non-active nations that currently don't play a critical role in another active nation's RP revert to crisis mode. In essence a large scale governmental collapse of probably 2/3 of the continent of Europa and probably a couple nations in the West.

It could be an RP event that could have enormous RP potential, with RPs spanning multiple nations and a rush for everyone to complete their own agendas in the new wild world that has formed. Active nations would not be affected by this government collapse so everyone can go to town.

  • What will Seylos do? Will it help refugees? Solidify political power in Europa? Maybe even make a small land grab of its own?
  • What will Adaptus do? See this as the moment to rightfully restore the Aroman Empire and create a swath of conquests in the failing nations?
  • Will the Imperial States of Europe see this as a chance to build a new strong empire?

Obviously, for an idea like this, there would have to be ground rules set from the beginning to so people don't overreach by conquering too much or what have you. I know some people may be protective of the nations in Europa, but I suppose from my perspective it looks like a nations graveyard that could have a lot of RP potential with all of us joining the interaction. What do you guys think? Pitch some ideas or tell me how dumb this all is as a plan.

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Hello @Seylos. It's an interesting idea that's been floated before. The collapse of some of these older Europan nations was part of an earlier long RP story.

In fact, some might even claim we sort-of have this going on already.

Here are some of the questions that require an answer before moving forward on this:

  1. What do the other (semi-)active Europan nations say? I'm tagging them in alphabetical order: @Adaptus, @Afropa@Cristina@Fleur de Lys @Magnaeus, @Suverina, @Tagmatium Rules
  2. Which areas of the old Europa are going to be in crisis?
  3. Who is going to be involved?
  4. What would be some possible outcomes?
  5. What will happen to the territories that are occupied?
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2. Well I made a sh*tty map of where there could be crisis nations, and I think they are safely inactive? SO any of the red highlighted nations, I'm not quite sure I either got all or I might have marked a coupe that aren't

AKzIbwA.png

3. Well I imagine with a collapse of this scale, anybody who believe they should be involved. This would be a global scale event.

4. Some outcomes could be land annexations, creation of puppet states, other non-Europan nations gaining a heavier economic influence, other natinos increasing in population and unrest due to their refugee policy.

5. I imagine that would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

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I'll keep this as brief as I can, as I really only have one thing to add.

 

Firstly, props to @Seylos for this interesting idea. Applauding the effort to launch this OOC before anything else and also thinking forward with some details. If this takes off, constant planning like this will have to be kept up--seeing as this is a rather massive RP involving a ton of NPC and Player Nations alike.

Scale and scope in mind, what I have to add really just comes down to this: Noting that we are dealing with what I can safely label a cataclysm of continental proportions, it's worth keeping in mind that this combined undertaking involving many (probably dozens) of nations pouring vast amounts of resources into this effort would affect both the New World and the Old World for decades to come. Now before I continue, I want to stress that I do see this RP as interesting and possessing great potential for story-telling and worldbuilding. I am NOT against it at all. However, the sheer scale and magnitude of this event has me thinking of the repercussions and global challenges that will surely be imposed upon the rest of the world in this scenario

In short, no nation would walk away completely unscathed from this. Non-participants would likely also feel some sort of economic effect from their neighbours committing to total war, mass relief/rebuilding efforts, or other stabilising efforts that would take place--and I'm not even getting into the diplomacy and geopolitical side. To reiterate, all I'm doing is posing an idea for consideration of those involved. Addressing everyone interested: take it as a point for consideration before committing to what will likely change the world in a very big way.

Some things we can likely expect:

  1. Increase in national debt.
  2. Widescale inflation
  3. If military options are widespread: Rise of political dissidents, rebel, or terror groups in or around countries committing bulk forces.
  4. Corruption in handling the funding for what is likely a Trillion Unit expenditure
  5. Economic bubbles forming to feed the demand for relief or war material
  6. Not to mention: World attention will be directly focused on the unfolding events, meaning that large undertakings by IGOs or singular governments could be swept aside in favour of the issue of public interest

 

In conclusion, while I'm not trying to be a massive bell-end partypooper, I'm pressing that an RP of this scale will require some very detailed consideration of the factors. Now, if it's going to be said that I'm arbitrarily enforcing these boring factors on potential RP'ers, I'll just remind you that you can simply choose to do this on a smaller scale. As Orioni cited, the War on the VLA in Afropa is one way to go about something such as this without crazy global repercussions. But if people are intent to pursuing something on the scale of a global crisis, it would naturally follow that the consequences and factors are all concretely (that means written down on a publicly accessible medium) laid out with due diligence.

 

So that's what I have to add for consideration. I'm certainly hoping this is taken as constructive like I fully intended as I know this can be verily misinterpreted as me dumping on hopes and dreams.

Thanks! 🍻

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I guess with what you said just in mind, it sounds like nobody would agree to any of this since it would just destroy everything everywhere for the most part. The only thing I'd have against this interpretation is how long these nations have been in crisis and are they even important to the global economy now? I'm not sure how long some of these nations have been gone but I've seen many referenced a decade ago. How rich were these nations to start (or to say how rich would they be now in Europa's more modern terms and not be nations brimming with railguns and space marines). Obviously if nations like Adaptus and Tagmatium just dropped into total chaos it would be terrifying to the global economy. 

I guess what would be good to establish is what are the non-active nations impact on the world now?

If that impact is still far too much then maybe instead of sort of smaller compromise, like the south western portion of Europa only (Assurym, Mirian, Europa Empire, Cabarria, Drogonryders etc). While of course still a big deal it wouldn't be apocalypse level. It's geographic area is a good place for a lot of nations to throw around their weight and whatnot.

I wouldn't want to start an RP where we would all be forced to destroy the economic progress our nations have been making.

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Clarification on Seylos' and my added point above:

jn2IFdg.jpg

Excuse the informality of the screenshot, just not worth the effort to transcribe this when the messages are perfectly pertinent and summarise the points.

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There is only one way this RP would go. And that total war.

Adaptus, would be damned in IC terms to see any part of Europa fall to a Western power. We'd rather a fragmented continent of former prosperous states (a one which we can hegemonically, and financially dominate with ease). To a one dominated by foreign powers. 

In essence. Adaptus would be forced to the point of war if it felt any part of Europa was under-threat. With that in mind, you are looking effectively at modern world war. Which would be absolutely devastating to all those involved, and those who are not involved also. There is also the fact, this situation could be a legitimate scenario where nuclear war becomes a logical and serious possibility. 

Like Ivy, I'm not saying this is a bad idea. Rather the opposite, it's a brilliant idea. However, to pull it off, we'd all need to seriously consider the fact, this could in IC terms, sink the region into a dark age. 

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@Seylos

Fleur de Lys is an inactive nation that I would like to invade, if we were to go ahead with this plan.

If you want something constructive, @Adaptus has mentioned going to war with any New World nation that wants involvement in Europa. I don't fancy that. 

It'd be interesting to hear a definitive administrative stance on where we stand with CTE'd/old, unused nations, though. With the current issues surrounding Vocenae and Fleur de Lys, I'm hesitant to make a final decision on whether I'd want to be involved, because it could just bring people who have long left the region out of the woodwork to ruin some good RP. That's not fair at all. I'd wait to hear the executive decision on where the community stands with such an issue before progressing.

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My 2 cents, I think that although this risks a 2nd world war, it would do a lot to revitalize the RP in the region, as buzzing as it is already. I think the main question would be WHY they collapsed, was it global unrest, market crashes, small scale wars turning into regional conflicts?

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Although I'm not the hugest fan of war RP (I made my nation pacifistic for a reason) and I dislike total apocalypses, I could align myself with the idea. I have been planning to take over my northern neighbours and a lot of Thalassa before, this could be an opportunity to pursue this goal. I'd like to go for some technocratic greater southeast asian co-prosperity sphere. Since I wouldn't want to do this by force (nor would I be able to with the excuse of an army I call the self-defence force), I'd have to go for a series of fun political intrigues.

However, we should keep in mind that this is a truly Eurth-shattering thing we're talking about. When I was new to Europa, I had the idea of a custom solar system, which had been beaten down then because it was considered to be too lorebreaking (hi Voc). I don't know how much of an experienced roleplayer @Seylos is, but I feel like this idea could be a similar rookie idea to mine.

One more, thing, @Little Flau is also only "semi-inactive", as he still is a part of the Manamana League and I have recently spoke with him about it.

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4 minutes ago, Sunset Sea Islands said:

However, we should keep in mind that this is a truly Eurth-shattering thing we're talking about. When I was new to Europa, I had the idea of a custom solar system, which had been beaten down then because it was considered to be too lorebreaking (hi Voc). I don't know how much of an experienced roleplayer @Seylos is, but I feel like this idea could be a similar rookie idea to mine.

One more, thing, @Little Flau is also only "semi-inactive", as he still is a part of the Manamana League and I have recently spoke with him about it.

Yes I am aware of how enormous of an event this would be. I've been closely talking to quite a few people about how they feel, what they would want out of an RP like this, and in the case of the conversation between me and @Iverica, how to construct a proper finished proposal that incorporates the ideas of everyone to be involved. This is why I would like everyone to be blunt with their opinions or even propose altered versions of what to do.

I'm not sure if custom solar system, and political collapse of inactive nations are quite in the same neighborhood.

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A large scale war in the region would destroy Cristina, which seeks to be a major international transport hub in the continent and the main gate to Central Europa.

The Free Port probably would remain neutral and align with whoever that would work for stabilization of the region, but it would also align with Adaptus since Cristina would not want to see Europa dominated by western nations too. My little city-state would be located just in the middle of the chaos and there will be the fear that it would be the next one to be annexed.

Although the proposed scenarios presented here would lead to a great RP, I fear for the final results on map. I would not like to see, for instance, those old nations (that would be played as NPCs by the region administrators) being replaced for more empty no named lands or turned into colonies, provinces or overseas territories of far away nations. In my opinion it would be a waste of potential interesting NPCs.

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Two things I think about this, first, will cause a world war and in my opinion would help establish the Model UN that @Orioni has been working on. Second, this is just basically a land grab. Say you take over some of that area of that former country and they actually come back to the region. Are you the person who invaded and took over either some of the land or all of the land, going to give them their land back ICly. I can see half of the people involved saying yes they'd give the land back, but yet there are those select few (not gonna name them but they know who they are) that will not give those nation's their land back. So my official thought on this idea is it's not a good idea and will result in a issue greater than it is now currently.

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Honestly? These people have come and left; they have done their own things and made their own contributions — Let's try to leave it at that.

There are many other possibilities for potentially good and equally interesting RPs that do not call for the end of the world. And I don't see Europa as a region so helpless that it must kill itself to live on.

Edited by Andalla (see edit history)
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  • 2 years later...
On 7/11/2018 at 3:06 PM, Seylos said:

Obviously, for an idea like this, there would have to be ground rules set from the beginning to so people don't overreach by conquering too much or what have you. I know some people may be protective of the nations in Europa, but I suppose from my perspective it looks like a nations graveyard that could have a lot of RP potential with all of us joining the interaction. What do you guys think? Pitch some ideas or tell me how dumb this all is as a plan.

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I know there has been a little talk about such an event and perhaps it is to be revisited? If certain ground rules are set like not physically conquering the continent or any given nation in Europa (outside of those of Europa) this is certainly worth a shot, or at the very least, a further discussion. Such a scenario can occur while still honoring those who once called it home. I think realistically, we can figure out who has a chance of return and who doesn't, too.

Worth a discussion imo

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You grave-digging monster!

😬

I think it's worth me putting my comment here as well as on Discord, just in case it gets lost or not noticed as things progress.

I have no problem with this but with some caveats.

  • The first and most obvious one would be any suggested wipe or erasure of nations in Europa, although I do believe it was merely a suggestion. It does, however, need addressing. This was kind of suggested but is either impractical or needs close thought. Europa, certainly the Occident, western Burania and heading down into Amutia, is the cradle of not so much civilisations but cultural blocs. Northern Burania is pseudo-Scandinavian and Amutia is the analogue to Latin cultures. Scrubbing or amending those would blow a hole in what we have now. The other areas less so important and I think if we keep to putting nations of similar cultures there, then it should be fine - pending any further discussion and @Orioni's further plans for tweaking the map and cultures.
  • The second is that I am keen to keep the six islands to my northeast, as these are the focus of my expansion, although I have lagged behind a lot with that. This is pretty much non-negotiable.
  • Thirdly, I'd like to keep Volsci and Qubdi, as these fulfil a roll of historical and modern local rivals for Tagmatium. It'd be convenient for me to retain these, as I do hope to at least use these in the future. The former is the rival in the Long War and the latter a more modern one, although with roots in the past. At least this way, it means that Tagmatium isn't the main hegemonic power in and around the central Europan seas.
  • Fourthly, I'd also like to point out that most active nations may not be able to achieve much, if it came to peacekeeping, pacification or colonisation. The main powers that are reasonably active are deeply involved in Ceris. Only @Gallambria isn't so deeply involved as to prohibit a large operation elsewhere. Maybe the same's true of @Salvia but I've kind of dropped the ball on what he's doing ICly. I think the expansion will be taking up much of his attention? The perfidious EOS is in southern and eastern Europa, stomping pirates. Small nations might have to club together to be able to enforce anything, especially in the larger areas.

My other points are from more of an IC perspective.

  • Tagmatium doesn't really give overmuch of a f*ck about eastern and southern Europa. Much of that is within the dastardly clutches of EOS and their foul Orinese puppetmasters. At best, a quagmire sucking them in would be pleasing to Arhomaneia. But it's their mess to sort out. If New Wurld nations started to meddle in Europa away from the areas Tagmatium feels it has power over, then that's on them. The end point of this scenario is likely my government coming to the conclusion too late that it should have taken part and now can no longer get the international brownie points for being involved.
  • Meddling in the Occident or around the central Europan seas would get a big big frowny face from Tagmatium, though.
  • Much of Europa away from the Occident and the Orient have also been RPed as economically f*cked for a while now. I believe both the devious EOS and my selfless, noble government have attempted to give some of the areas economic aid. Although I don't yet know how well that has worked.
  • At best, much of Europa may well have stabilised since the collapse and the old governments re-established order. Perhaps new countries have formed through balkanisation or regionalism becoming strong as central governments collapsed. At worst, we'll see some sort of extremist fascist or communist group rise and fill the vacuum. One that might be expansionist and be welcomed with open arms as a way to stop the constant bickering of broken countries. That, obviously, could be a good thing to rally against. Who doesn't like punching totalitarian ideologues?

This could also be a chance for the idea of Mod-controlled NPCs to be tested. 

Or maybe Aurelia can swoop in and save the Old Wurld?

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My  points are from more of an IC perspective, cohabitating those of Tag's of a sort.

  • MH-Land doesn't have any sort of interest in the New Wurld, it has to a degree already intervened in it's activities to the North, and any further expansion or attempts to land upon the Occidental or anywhere near MH-Land's interests will result some frowny face moments, never mind the new power in charge. Some things change, some don't. 
  • Attempting to bring New Wurld 'Civilization' to the Occidental will be met with, probably a frowny face and a bayonet.
  • That being said, if the New Wurld nations stay of out the way, they will probably be met with disinterest. Southern Europa and indeed the area where SDC is and below? Doesn't concern MH-land. The main body and the area of their colony is all that matters to them.
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58 minutes ago, Haruspex said:

My  points are from more of an IC perspective, cohabitating those of Tag's of a sort.

  • MH-Land doesn't have any sort of interest in the New Wurld, it has to a degree already intervened in it's activities to the North, and any further expansion or attempts to land upon the Occidental or anywhere near MH-Land's interests will result some frowny face moments, never mind the new power in charge. Some things change, some don't. 
  • Attempting to bring New Wurld 'Civilization' to the Occidental will be met with, probably a frowny face and a bayonet.
  • That being said, if the New Wurld nations stay of out the way, they will probably be met with disinterest. Southern Europa and indeed the area where SDC is and below? Doesn't concern MH-land. The main body and the area of their colony is all that matters to them.

Maybe a good way to expand your holdings down around your colony - bringing peace and stability the Haru way!

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/18/2021 at 9:00 AM, Tagmatium Rules said:

The first and most obvious one would be any suggested wipe or erasure of nations in Europa, although I do believe it was merely a suggestion. It does, however, need addressing. This was kind of suggested but is either impractical or needs close thought. Europa, certainly the Occident, western Burania and heading down into Amutia, is the cradle of not so much civilisations but cultural blocs. Northern Burania is pseudo-Scandinavian and Amutia is the analogue to Latin cultures. Scrubbing or amending those would blow a hole in what we have now. The other areas less so important and I think if we keep to putting nations of similar cultures there, then it should be fine - pending any further discussion and @Orioni's further plans for tweaking the map and cultures.

True. That's why the subcontinents were established. Highlighting the different cultures would be even easier with a simple cultures map. Then again, our cultures don't match most RL alternatives.

On 1/18/2021 at 9:00 AM, Tagmatium Rules said:

Tagmatium doesn't really give overmuch of a f*ck about eastern and southern Europa. Much of that is within the dastardly clutches of EOS and their foul Orinese puppetmasters. At best, a quagmire sucking them in would be pleasing to Arhomaneia. But it's their mess to sort out. If New Wurld nations started to meddle in Europa away from the areas Tagmatium feels it has power over, then that's on them.

Your estimate of the RP implications is largely correct. Those old inactive friends which joined EOS way back when are still IC members in my book. Any interference would certainly trigger the mutual defence clause. So you're right in describing it as a local Oriental sphere of influence.

Similary, ongoing conflicts in in the Occident won't really bother us that much. It depends to be seen how far Grand Anglia may go.

This leaves Azania (gateway to Marenesia) and Burania (dominated by Volsci).

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