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Greetings, everyone. 2-bye1.gif


During the last few weeks Orioni, I and a couple others have been talking about the map of Europa. The latest achievement was a bata version of a full planet map in the natural Earth projection. You can check it out here. The main point is: the planet we live on is definitely not Earth. It might have the same physical properties as Earth, but the fact that the continents are completely different is proof enough that it is not Earth.


The name we have started to use for the Planet on Discord (and in a Polandball comic which I'll talk about in a moment) is Alemi. The name originates from Orioni's conlang and means "world".


Anyways, now that we know that Alemi and Earth are not the same planet, even though they have the same physical properties, for example a gravitational acceleration of 9.81m/s? and that a year on Alemi is equal to a year on Earth, a new question arose:


If the planet is similar, but not the same, what about the whole star system? huh.gif


Since I like worldbuilding and worldbuilding in space, I decided to answer this question, or at least to provide a beta proposal for this problem. I was bored, so between half past one and half past two in the morning I have created the first beta version of the "San system". Please, take a look.


user posted image


Except for the fact that the "San" and Alemi are basically identical to the sun and the Earth, I've changed the "San system" around a little, so that, once more, it is similar, but not identical to the solar system.


1.) The name "San" was a random creation. I was thinking about Santorini, the city which is the forum background right now. Then I isolated the "San" part and noticed, that that's close to Sol, the name of our RL sun, so I've kept the name. Also, once I was finished with this map, I've noticed that "the sun is rising" and "the san is rising" sound exactly the same, which is nice, since it basically eliminates cultural and linguistic changes, except for an "u", which is replaced with an "a". EE.gif


2.) There are two "Micro-Mercuries", Apollon and Hermes, instead of one, large Mercury. This means that Alemi is either the second or the fourth planet of the system, depending on wether you count dwarf planets or not. I've placed the first one pretty close to Mercury's orbit and the second one a little bit further out to prevent them from crashing into "San". Apollon is very volcanically active, so it can be compared to Jupiter's moon Io. Hermes is just a small Mercury.


3.) Pandora, the Pseudo-Venus, has got a moon, Hephaestus. Also, in my imagination Pandora's dense atmosphere is darker than the one of Venus. Maybe it could be comparable to Kerbal Space Program's Eve. This would mean that it's albedo is lower, it would reflect less "sanlight". Venus has had a large impact on the civilizations on Earth, so I guess having a bright spot in the night sky is important. I have a solution for this problem in point 8.


4.) Alemi needs a moon because of cultural similarities to real life. In my imagination it is slightly brown or reddish. The Earth's moon was created because a Mars-sized planet (called Theia) crashed into the Earth a long, long time ago. The molten debris lumped together to create the moon. I have imagined the barren Alemi to be made out of brown or reddish material in this Polandball comic. The real-life moon and Earth have a pretty much identical material composition, so it would only make sense for Alemi's moon to be the same colour as Alemi itself.


5.) Kratos, the Mars of "San", has got a very thin ring system instead of two caught asteroids.


6.) There are five gas giants in the San system, opposed to the four in the real solar system (not counting the hypothetical Planet Nine). Nevertheless, the science of Planet Nine applies. Having more gas giants in a system usually results in more stable orbits, especially for the terrestrial planets. A fifth gas giant could also be a reason why the two "Micro-Mercuries" are able to exist.


7.) Olympus is basically the same as Jupiter, because there was some old RP post in which a nation put a satellite in orbit of Jupiter. This was a typing error, they put a satellite in orbit of Olympus.


8.) Aether is a gas giant with a high albedo, which means he reflects a lot of light and is visible with the naked eye. It has the same function as Venus, since, as I've mentioned above, having a bright spot in the night sky is important.


9.) Chaos is Neptune-ish with extreme storms.


10.) The main feature of Thanatos is the high amount of moons orbiting the gas giant.


11.) Hades is the last planet of the system and features a very low albedo, which means that he's dark. You could add some lore that he was only discovered because of his gravitational pull, since he is only visible with a very good telescope.


I have constructed this star system according to the instructions given in

by Artifexian, a hard-core worldbuilder.


Please tell me what you think about my idea, I am curious to read through your opinions and your feedback.


I've heard from Orioni that Vocenae is an expert on star systems, so if you're reading this, it would be great if you'd write a reply! cool.gif


I look forward to your replies:



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Well, as I stated on my brief visit to the Discord, you've done fantastic work in creating this solar system.


That being said (and this was also said on Discord), I do not believe that this would be appropriate for use as Europa's star system. There's just so much history that has been built up with Europa just being part of the Sol system and not having different planets or orbits. We were just Earth with a different landmass. I feel that by changing it you're forcing a retcon on pretty much the entire history of Europa which affects old players, old threads, so on and so forth. I just do not believe that it's something that should happen.


There's a concept in Future Tech that we use called Fractal Sol. You can read more about it in the Future Tech Advice and Assistance thread (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.ph...32652#p17432652 ) but a TLDR is that the Sol System exists more or less in a multiverse. So many players want to be from/own Earth and there's just too much continuity and other players canons to reconcile it, so every time a player comes from Earth or Sol, a Fractal Sol is created for that player.


That's how I've personally been treating Europa for the past near decade, as a Fractal. And I honestly think that is how it should stay.


That being said, this proposed star system would, should the Europa region attempt to make the jump to FT, could serve as an excellent foothold in the wider galaxy. Or as part of something that could be done in region in the Past and Future subforum.


But if any attempt to make the jump to FT on the main NS forums (as that is what the community uses and recognizes) please consult me first so I can try to brief everyone on it as best that I can because it IS a big leap and there's a bit of a learning curve in regards to how FT works.


As for the star system itself, again it is very solid. I really don't have much to add other than I would suggest beefing up the planet descriptions a bit and using Space Engine to acquire pictures for. This is something that I can do should this route be taken. An example of some of my own work on a star system can be found on the main forums:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.ph...52913#p23252913 I would also suggest that, if we actually need to name the planet something other than Europa (again, I think the planet name has been referenced as Earth and Europa enough that changing it doesn't really need to happen), but I would suggest something more along the lines of Aulerai. Or maybe just Aurelia.


All in all, I have to staunchly disagree with using this as Europa's star system. It works well for a in-region exploration of a nearby star system or as a launching point into the greater FT community, but there's just too much history within Europa that references the actual Solar System to use without forcing a retcon for all players that have ever taken part in the region.

Edited by Vocenae (see edit history)
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Using Google I did a search for mentions of real-life planets on this forum. I used the normal search query to check sites. (site:z7.invisionfree.com/Europa ) in combination with planet names. Here is what I found. I have included some links as well. I verified most links to exclude mentions of similar names for weaponry, sports teams, etc.


Inner planets

Outer planetsDwarf planets
  • Pluto: 0 results

  • Ceres: 0 results

Based on these finding, I would conclude that:
  1. The following planets are canon: Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
  2. The following planets have not been defined: Mercury, Uranus, Neptune
What these non-defined planets mean for RP we can continue discussing here.
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I find that agreeable. If it was never mentioned in RP then it can be changed without repercussion to canon continuity across Europa's history. I would still caution against adding more than the normal number of nine planets simply because it just seems strange (and this is coming from the guy who has pretty much been dealing with star systems directly for the past nine years).


Also look at that little young me in the first Saturn link. So young and inexperienced with nation RP.

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Alright, I have made another draft, trying to seek common ground.


My main reason for trying to design a system for Europa are possible roleplays. Most of the "ongoing" roleplays, except for Magnaeus' promising diplomatic ball, have been inactive since 2016. That's why I have tried to come up with a story around this solar system.


I have tried to find a possibility to leave the RPs of the past as canon whilst still doing a "semi-hard" cut and introducing a new system. My solution is Voc's Fractal Sun. The idea I've had was some kind of shift in spacetime which caused Europa-Earth to switch from one Fractal Sol to another. The first sign of this would be a loss of communication with satellites, rovers and probes throughout the solar system*. This would give us a lot of RP potential. Re-establishing a communication satellite network, a new space initiative, political roleplay, reactions of the population (confusion, panic, religion arrow.gif armageddon, terrorist attacks opposing a space initiative, sabotaging research bases and spaceports, rising interest in space, etc.) and many more. Working on finding a solution for the question why Earth has switched universes and what caused it could be an interesting and long plotline.


(* To save the crews of space stations I've tried to come up with something along the lines of "the satellites which were close to Earth and therefore tightly bound by gravity, were transported to the other universe as well".)


This is the new draft, which tries to include Voc's Fractal Sun to maintain canon coherence.


user posted image


As mentioned, personally I am not so much tied names. And your proposal is more complete than anyone else ever proposed, so your claim could carry weight. [...] Your proposal takes RL 4 inner and 4 outer planets and turns them into 5 inner and 5 outers. wink2.gif Not much of a realitiy shock. [...] I am reading your PDF proposal now. It is very well constructed. [...] The main discussion point seems to be on page 1: Vocenae's fractal Sun.


Orioni seemed to be interested in the concept, as well as the ideas for RPs in this setting I've submitted in the form of the mentioned PDF.


TLDR: There are two options.


1.) Leave everything as is, regular solar system.

2.) Change it, creating interesting RP potential and uniqueness whilst maintaining canon coherence thanks to Voc's Fractal Sun.


There are no other options, since leaving Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn in place and changing the leftovers doesn't make sense at all. I have re-labled Earth as Earth in the new draft.


Hopefully we can find common ground.





Edited by Sunset Sea Islands (see edit history)
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1.) The name "San" was a random creation. I was thinking about Santorini, the city which is the forum background right now. Then I isolated the "San" part and noticed, that that's close to Sol, the name of our RL sun, so I've kept the name. Also, once I was finished with this map, I've noticed that "the sun is rising" and "the san is rising" sound exactly the same, which is nice, since it basically eliminates cultural and linguistic changes, except for an "u", which is replaced with an "a". EE.gif

Be careful about messing with the spirits of the ancestors. ninja.gif

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I think that while it seems weird for me, just changing Neptune, Uranus, Mercury and Pluto and adding some new planets and just changing the names around (names as Orioni and I discussed on Discord vary Friday m civilization to civilization, such Genus being Venera for Russia) doesn't disrupt much. My concern was entirely with what had been RP'd in the past and the changes that would affect across all the canon.


Honestly I think jumping to a whole new Fractal would be more disruptive than anything. I mean getting down to the very core of it, Europa is still MT branching into PMT a little bit. Most of the attention is going to be focused on terrestrial concerns. So all this to define the solar system is at its core a bit moot since nearly all the attention will be on Earth, low orbit and the moon.


Again it's an impressive piece of work (and I mean I this having seen my fair share of starmaps both bad and good in FT proper) but it might be more than what is really needed, unless the region starts making a push towards FT. It's make a perfect system to explore and colonize in a one off RP or using as a foothold into Europa proper.

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As I said in yonder other post, names for the planets can vary across different civilizations so claiming or stating it's called [X] is a bit silly. tongue.gif Call it whatever you feel your civilization would call it.

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Sorry for being too short and incomplete. I was in a rush to get ready for dinner. (Pizza on a terrace, to celebrate the new job.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell, this is what the current proposal looks like.


    0. Sun; San; Sol


    Inner planets

    1. Double Mini-Mercuries called Apollon and Hermes

    2. Venus (canon); Pandora

    3. Earth; Terra; Alemi; homeworld

    4. Mars (canon); Kratos (with rings)


    Outer planets

    5. Jupiter (canon); Olympus; Zeus

    6. Saturn (canon); Aether; Kronos

    7. Chaos (pseudo-Neptune); Kaos

    8. Thanatos

    9. Hades

@SSI, can you let me know if this is correct?

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Hi. I'm just here to make a proposal for... whatever. I'm not sure anymore.


0. San


Inner planets

1. Double Mini-Mercuries called Apollo and Ares

2. Pandora

3. Alemi (home planet)

4. Kratos (with rings)


Outer planets

5. Olympus

6. Aether (oddly light blue)

7. Poseidon

8. Thanatos

9. Hades

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Sweet. happy.gif That Moon could maybe use some more craters.


user posted image

I see your dog and raise you a flag.

user posted image


So, do people have space colonies? I am just curious, as this does seem to be a contemporary era region.

Edited by Derthalen (see edit history)
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So, do people have space colonies? I am just curious, as this does seem to be a contemporary era region.

You're right, Europa is modern tech. There are some space stations and rovers and such, no colonies though (at least not that I know). We're just discussing wether the solar system is the same as IRL or not for future RP planning.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A while has passed since the discussion calmed down. I have used that time to summarise the discussion so far and to propose what we should do from here onwards.


A Solar System for Europa


What are we discussing?

With the creation of a full global map for our region one thing became clear: the planet Europa is on is not Earth. With Europa being just a continent in the past you could have always found some kind of explanation that we're still on Earth, but with a complete globe being designed this possibility has been ruled out. This made me wonder wether the solar system of the planet Europa is on is different from real life, or not. To find a solution for this problem I have created a proposal for a constructed solar system in early June. The solar system I came up with is similar, yet different from real life.


Why are we discussing this?

Simple: Roleplay potential. Several nations, including myself, have expressed interest in a joint space program. Having a unique solar system would add diversity and originality to the world we play in. I have created a rough draft for a storyline a while ago and shared it with Orioni, who seemed pleased with my work. If we would decide upon wether we want to explore the real life solar system or to venture into a virgin one we could settle for a plan for new, exciting roleplays.


The proposal

I have gone into deeper explanation of the solar system I created before, so I'll just include the picture and give you a quick overview of the system.

user posted image

As opposed to real life my solar system consists of five inner and five outer planets, instead of four each. Two dwarf planets (Apollon and Hephaestus) have replaced Mercury, Venus (Pandora) is violet and has got a moon, Mars (Kratos) has got faint rings instead of caught asteroids and, as I have already mentioned, there's a fifth gas giant. The host star and the planet Europa is on feature the same physical properties as the Sun and Earth respectively.


Some have asked about the names of the celestial bodies and added their own ideas. The names I have used are, as the whole idea itself, just proposals and everyone can call them as they like for all I care. Different cultures refer differently to the same things, so if I call the eight planet Chaos and you call it Poseidon that's perfectly fine.



There were three kinds of reactions to this proposal: positive, negative and neutral. I will mention examples for all of them.


The most prominent reaction was the criticism by Vocenae. To summarise he is strongly against this idea and describes the planet as "Earth with a different landmass". He calls the proposal inappropriate, as it breaks canon consistency. His main arguments he uses is the work the member states of Europa have put into this world since 2004. (Please do not misunderstand me, this is a perfectly viable opinion and I am in no way degrading it. I just have a different opinion.)


Orioni remains neutral, but points out the topic of canon consistency as well.


The younger member states of Europa, such as myself, seemed to like my idea. (Maybe this is just newbie enthusiasm, who knows.) A good example for positive feedback is Magnaeus, who seemed fond of the idea, as he asked about naming the celestial bodies, which signalises to me that he is interested in this idea. Other nations, such as Paeca, have submitted their own builds, which means the same to me: the newer nations are interested in a constructed solar system.



As far as I can tell there are not that many "original Europans" active in recent roleplays, except for Orioni. To honor the work of the past and to implement a new solar system I have tried to come up with a solution: Vocenae explained the concept of "Fractal Sols", a system used by future tech roleplayers, which makes it possible for multiple participants to originate from Earth by layering an arbitrary number of versions of Earth (multiverse theory) on top of one another. I came up with a storyline that we basically jumped from one multiverse to another through some unknown incident (more RP-potential). This way both the achievements of the past and a new solar system can be maintained. We can have our cake and eat it at the same time.


What should we do?

We should set up a poll. It should feature the following options:

  • Implement the new solar system
  • Keep the real life solar system
  • Edit/ tweak the proposal for a new solar system
  • Abstain

By setting up a poll we could decide what course we should take from this point onwards. If the majority votes for implementing a new solar system, we'd do that, if not, then we won't. As far as I can see, the only "old" member of Europa, except for Orioni, who seems to be active on the forums is Vocenae. If by chance some "Europa OG" other than Voc reads this, I'd be glad to hear your opinion on this topic as well.


Thank you for enduring this awfully long piece of text.


tl;dr poll plz

Edited by Sunset Sea Islands (see edit history)
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Alright, this poll is going up. Voting is open for 7 days.



Voting is public and open to all residents. Last time I set it to "natives" only, which created some backlash. What's the difference?

Residents: Nations in the region.

Natives: Nations that possess more Regional Influence here than in any other region.

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Here's my take and then what happens, happens. It's going to be blunt.


Yes, I do think it's new person enthusiasm (and a need to cater to that enthusiasm lest they leave). There's no even real promise that you'll even RP said joint space RP (though perhaps my experience with the Future Tech community's very slow pace of posting has some influence on that). It's a huge, MAJOR change to what has already been established before your time all in the name of newbie enthusiasm.


Do new players have the right to create new things? Yes, absolutely, but not at the expense of what has come before. That is part of joining an older region with an established world and history, regardless of how active or inactive it may have been.


It's not very respectful to that history or the players who made it (regardless if they're still around or not) to come in and change things in such a major way that invalidates what they had done in the past even if what you want to change had only minor mentions in the past.


I mean if you want to make your mark and create your own world to play in, well, and this will be blunt, you should just go make your own region where you can create all this stuff from scratch. Where you can define what all the planets are to the fullest extent of your creative potential without any pre-existing community lore getting in your way.


Don't change or tarnish what came before you, because Europa has one of the oldest community histories on NS and to just flip it all around because you want to make it yours is insulting to that history. How would you react if the shoe was on the other foot if I was a new player that came in demanding all these radical and frankly needless changes to your long established regional history? Changes that retcon and invalidate parts of it simply because we're the new kids on the block?


Sorry, but that is how I see it. Trampling on what and who came before you.


Now that that has been said, what else is there to talk about?


Fractal Sol, as explained via the Future Tech Advice Thread: Fractal Sol, Fractal Earth (#FractalSol): Term describing the nature of Sol System (the Solar System) and/or earth in the Future Technology community; generally understood to mean that, within the canon and continuity of Future Tech, for each instance in which a player determines their respective entities to possess or originate from Sol System, a new, identical copy of Sol System comes into existence; term describing the necessity for multiple Sol Systems and multiple earths in Future Tech in order to reconcile possibly conflicting individual instances of canon or continuity; the nature of a "Prime Sol" or "Prime Earth" is debated, considered by many to "effectively non-existence" or "otherwise not applicable" in order to maintain reconciliation of different individual canons and continuities.


Perhaps I never explained the concept properly enough and that better explains what it is. By default, Europa always was a Fractal Sol with no connection to real-life Earth. Europa was Earth, for all intents and purposes. Nothing else changed. There was no United States or Russia or any real world nation that existed on Europa Earth.


There's no reason to come up with some contrived plot to 'jump Fractals' other than trying to shoehorn in your changes. It's a bad idea. Sorry if that seems blunt, but there you go.


What can change?


As was said before, anything that was never RP'd in the past to any extent. If, as Orioni's search showed, there was a mention of a planet such as MArs, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, etc mentioned in the past, then that's it. They are set in stone. Anything that wasn't mentioned can be changed with no harm to the existing canon in Europa. I don't necessarily think that new planetary bodies need to be added as it clutters things but if it wasn't established previously then I see no harm.


Existing, mentioned via RP planet names should remain the same, but each nation is free to call those planets what they like. I see no harm in that as all through history various civilizations have called the RL planets different names. Venus = Venera = Aphrodite, etc and so forth.


Do these changes change the Fractal nature of the Europa Fractal Sol? No, not really. In FT some people have Mars being blown up, Jupiter is a second star, so on and so forth.


It is very early for me right now and I have been up for a very long time and must sleep.


My TLDR is: No, these changes are unecessary and are disrepectful to the established history of Europa. Changing things because of newbie enthusiasm and a need to retain new players does not and should never overwrite what came before, regardless of how long ago it was.

Edited by Vocenae (see edit history)
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My TLDR is: No, these changes are unecessary and are disrepectful to the established history of Europa. Changing things because of newbie enthusiasm and a need to retain new players does not and should never overwrite what came before, regardless of how long ago it was.

Allright, let's scrap this idea. You have changed my mind and I admit defeat. I was disrespectful to the lore and I apologise sincerely.

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