Jump to content

[OOC] OPEC


Recommended Posts

(IC thread located here.)

 

How are we to establish oil production? There are issues about oil drilling, but I don't know which industry it effects in NS. I'm guessing mining would be closest. (Even though when the NS page describes dominant economic sectors it's describing mining as uranium mining, unless they changed that recently.)

 

I'm guessing O has some idea since he created the IC thread. But I'm very curious and I thought I'd bring it up here so it can be discussed and not just ask O directly.

Link to comment
  • Replies 30
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Jilderen's position on the Oil market is rather passive I'd say. They might produce some themselves, but as most of the nation runs on nuclear power (so mining for uranium and thorium are of some interest) the only real use of oil is in the petrochemical industry. Knowing Jilderen, with its massive nature reserves and all (hence the fact that so many people get lost and die in there), they are putting some serious effort in replacing the fossile oil with more renewable sources like plant oils.

 

Still, if Jilderen is sitting on some massive oil reserves, it might be part of OPEC just to keep the other parties at bay.

Link to comment

I'll present this later on in my G7 summit thread.

 

From the NS statistics, I regularly see that Orioni produces uranium, but nothing more. I have decided for myself that there is probably some off-shore gas but not enough to export.

 

Perhaps we could rename it to "E(nergy)PEC" and include uranium. I don't know yet.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

There are drilling for oil issues, I just don't know what statistic they improve.

 

The statistic for mining just says "mining sector", but when in nation description is says "Uranium Mining" for some reason. The badges says "Top X% of world/region largest mining sector". The badge also shows a coal cart.

 

There is the "mine collapses" issue, if one chose to not improve saftey regulations GDP is improved, this I assume due to it boosting the "mining sector" statistic. The issue doesn't mention what's being mined. There's an energy related issue where one can chose: wind or solarpower, nuclear energy and coal (and oil?). I'm not sure if the choice has any economic effect, but choosing nuclear energy (uranium, assuming fission not fusion) or coal (and oil?) should logically both improve mining statistic.

 

I did a bit of searching whilst typing this post and found this:

"Beef-based agriculture is simply the name that Max originally used for what is now referred to as the agriculture industry. Same as Uranium Mining arrow.gif Mining, Soda Sales arrow.gif Beverage Sales, Door-to-door Insurance Sales arrow.gif Insurance, Woodchipping arrow.gif Timber Woodchipping. The name was changed in the World Census reports (which have been updated reasonably regularly over the last few years), but obviously not in the nation description."

 

So mining is all sorts of mining.

 

I searched if I could find anything about the oil issues, and one user claimed the options of the issue "painful prices paid at the pump" affects auto industry.

 

But I think mining is very broad and would represent extraction of petroleum and natural gas. Wikipedia article on mining: "Mining operations can be grouped into five major categories in terms of their respective resources. These are oil and gas extraction, coal mining, metal ore mining, nonmetallic mineral mining and quarrying, and mining support activities.[52] Of all of these categories, oil and gas extraction remains one of the largest in terms of its global economic importance."

Link to comment

I've always RP'd Adaptus as an oil producing nation. But more in a external capacity. What I mean is Adaptus does not have oil fields as such, but mines oil in the Storm Ocean and staked claim to several known oil fields under the sea. Which is to add, something the Adaptons would protect vigorously, despite the claims being barely legitimate. And it would only be logical that Adaptus would push to take more oil in the area, in the absence of other nations.

 

Adaptus does have other sources of energy, in small nuclear energy and a growing renewables sector. But oil and gas are still the main bread and butter for economic reasons.

 

Adaptus as a nation, would be highly protective and secretive about its energy production industry, as it's a very integral part of both the economy and to feed an incredibly high standard of living in the country, and a society where aggressively pursuing scientific and technological progress, and the philosophical issues around those is paramount

 

Basically, without oil and gas for both energy and economy Adaptus would probably fall. At least that's how I've RP'd Adaptus. That, and the high reliance on technology are kind of like the Adapton Achilles heel.

Link to comment
Definition, it all depends on that...

Throwing mining and oil extracting together makes sense. I'm up for it!

 

Also, Jilderen has a seriously large nuclear power industry, so we all know what that implies.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=compare/n...ren?censusid=20

 

Well, what does that imply? tongue.gif I'm not saying we should deny you oil production, but according to statistics you'd be (I'm assuming) one of the more minor producers of the OPEC.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

user posted image

 

I toyed around with some oil production numbers from Wikipedia and an idea of how to establish oil production.

 

The idea is to have a simple formula for counting production, then I'm thinking the OPEC could release an annual or bi-annual report. (Updating and releasing new figures. Continuous updates would be very impractical.)

 

Natural gas would be calculated similarly.

 

All nations with negative mining index are set to zero and then all countries are given their index +1. (So Jilderen would be set to 0 and then given +1.) This in order to let any nation that wants to RP as a producer of oil and gas and join the OPEC to do so.

 

In this calculation 64 and 8000 would be fixed numbers. So when "Nation X" joins, let's say they have a mining sector index of 6, they'd have 6+1 (=7) and 7 divided by 64 would be 11% so they'd produce 8000x0.11 (=880), which will be added to the production total so that total production of listed nations are 8880.

 

The percentages aren't that relevant, they'd change constantly if new members join or old members leave. As will total production. I'm not a math guy but it seems as the fixed numbers would work. If Miiros left the total production would be lowered to 6000, but when "Nation X" joins the production will be increased by 880 to 6880.

(Even though now I've thought more about it a base of 10000 would be easier. But it'd still work the same.)

 

Also, should Suverina's index have been improved by 2 when the annual report comes out, I'd produce 2120+248=2368. Raising the total production by 248.

 

I kind of feel my system doesn't seem logical, but everything seems to check out the way I imagined it'd work.

 

And maybe barrels would be more convinient than cubic meters?

 

I'm thinking oil/gas reserves could be left abstract.

 

Thoughts?

Link to comment

These numbers would assume we use the 1% population rule, which would mean Jilderen would have a population of 49 million.

 

Depends on how dependant you are on oil. 128,000 cubic meters are 805000 barrels. Comparing with real life nations your oil consumption could realistically be anything between 500,000 and 3,000,000 (barrels per day). (Judging by your NS statistics you seem to be quite environment friendly, which could mean Jilderen is a bit more reliant on clean energy.)

 

If I adjust the fixed base production to 10,000 you'd be producing 160,000 cubic meters, the equivalent of 1,113,000 barrels.

 


 

user posted image

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

Given the total ban on (petrol driven) cars, always opting for the greenest (or most nuclear) of options with the issues and all that... It's very, very, very safe to say that Jilderen is very green.

 

Also: nice logo. I'll see if I can come up with one too


Update: I threw this together.

user posted image

Meet the Jilder State Resources Group (JSR for short). Responsible for all mining, drilling and other gathering of natural resources within Jilderen, it's national waters and other acquired sites.

Edited by Jilderen (see edit history)
Link to comment

Nice logo!

 

I just shamelessly stole Rompetrol's. I was actually just looking for inspiration about what to name my major petroleum company, found Rompetrol and took both name and logo! (Except you know, changing rom to suv) tongue.gif

user posted image

 

Seeing as you're a rather green nation I'd say we can assume that you export quite a bit of that oil you're extracting.

 

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

I think Jilderen will export to those who really need it, but otherwise hugs its closely with an eye on the future.

You don't really seem to be on board with the whole purpose of the OPEC. By creating a cartel we monopolize the petroleum market and try to make as much money on exports as possible. Sweet, sweet capitalism. Storing oil should mostly be to increase prices by lowering the supply. champ.gif

 

But I guess most of us have strategic oil reserves.

Link to comment

Suv, I've been looking at that sheet you produced. The idea seems nice and quite good actually, but I've got some wee comments.

You set an amount for production (the 8.000.000 cubic meters/day) and divided it based on that. Maybe it's better to set a fixed production to the Mining Sector score (125.000 cubic meters/day in current set up). So, I assume that for any changes in the Mining Score, each point up/down causes a net change of 125k?

This current set up suggest countries all produce resources in a similar fashion. Jilderen, for example, would do less gas & oil, but more fissile materials (not taking into account precious & rare earth metals), so this number is a bit 'vague'.

Maybe an idea to up the production value a bit and let nations themselves (more or less) decide how it is distributed in various fields. E.g. a score of 1 might equate a Net production value of 250.000 cubic meters/day. If I were to allocate 20% to the mining of fissile materials, it wouldn't mean I produce 50k m³ of it per day, but I'd dig up that much dirt (gold ore wields can be as low as 5 grams per tonne), allocating 20% to Oil would mean 50k m³ of crude oil (or gas, if allocated to Gas) due to method of mining it.

This will allow for 1) a single method of calculating a nation's output and, 2) a more diverse production scheme because nations can allocate percentages in a way that matches their countries best. In return, it also shows what nations produce very little gas (e.g. Jilderen) and thus have a (potentially) larger need to import it.

See, commerce and trade! Time to construct those pipes across the ocean floors!

Link to comment

The mining sector index is just a number used to calculate oil production. What your mining sector produces is 100% up to you.

 

Should you want to produce oil, you could use my formula to calculate how much oil you are producing. (Or choose a number below that result.)

 

But how large part of your mining sector that is devoted to oil and gas is abstract. I just created a formula for establishing oil production, it hasn't got anything to do with coal, uranium, iron etc. I don't think we have any plans to actually crteate statistics about other mining sectors. But if we would, that would be calculated differently and have nothing to do with the oil calculation.

 

I just used the index numbers as a tool to establish the shares of the fixed base production.

 

The sheet is just to show the calculation and the principle. If someone doesn't want to produce oil/gas they don't, if someone wants to they can use the formula to calculate it. Should they want a lower production than the formula number they can freely choose so.

 

The idea isn't to assign oil production to everyone, unless they actually want to. Since you and Emakera have negative mining indexes I thought that by using a forumla of setting negative to 0 and then give everyone +1 everyone that wants to produce oil and gas could do so.

 

If you're a member of the OPEC you'd have to tell if you decided on a lower number, so that when the biannual report is made you get the lower number. The OPEC will show OPEC countries only. But if one isn't an OPEC member one can still use the formula for establishing ones oil production for RP purposes.

 

I created the sheet in order to create a formula of how to calculate oil production. It's supposed to be a tool that everyone can use, but they can choose not to. It is freeform RP after all, but my formula creates a ceiling for what a nation can roleplay their oil production as.

 

As regarding to the fixed production, the numbers are actually automatically fixed. I'm thinking I'm establishing the base number of production to 10,000 instead of 8. Which means every increase in the index by 1 is fixed to 156,500 cubic meters (984,385 barrels).

 

But yeah, the easiest way to count it is by taking your mining index (reset to 0 if negative) and add 1 then take that number and multiply it by 156,500. That makes the formula simpler and more logical, even though the result is still the same.

 

So should Jilderen wish to be an oil producer you can chose any production number between 0 and 156,500 m³/day.

 

One has to be true to oneself when deciding a number, if one knows that one always chooses issues that save the environment and take stances against mining and drilling regularly they should opt for a lower production number (or no production at all).

 

We could get rid of set negative mining sector to 0, but I know it's hard to balance roleplaying and the statistics when choosing options on issues. (And in instances when one choses to change how one roleplays ones nation it can take a long, long time until your "new" stances on issues will have changed the statistics. (It may take more than a year with 2 issues/day to turn a negative mining index positive.) And also, a nation could be fiercly protecting land and forests but have nothing against drilling for oil in the oceans. If we get rid of the set to 0 and +1 rule some nations wouldn't be able to RP as oil producers, it might be fair but it's more fun and including if we give everyone the option to choose.

 

Even though my system actually is fixed, I'm glad you brought it up, now the formula will be much easier and logical. (Should we use it)

 

_____

 

And a note: Just because I argue in support of my own idea doesn't mean I necessarily think it's the best option or that it doesn't need to be improved upon or changed. Just trying to foster a healthy discussion so that we can thoroughly discuss all viable options. I am aware that all of my years in politics have made me prone to have more of a debate approach to discussions. I'm used to one making the best arguments for ones case and then the majority makes an informed decision.

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

Suv: I'm all for that approach!

 

My main issue with the score is that all mining (be it fossil fuels, metals or others) are all thrown onto one big heap. Not all resources are distributed evenly and equal. So if we tie value X to mining score Y, it would suggest that all with score Y to have (within some RP-freedom) production X.

To more accurately represent this I'd say it's wiser to translate the mining score (with your proposed adjustment) into a total production value that can, in turn, be translated into other values.

 

Example:

Mining Score 1 translate into a production score of 50.

If I allocate 50 points to Oil production, I'd produce 156.500m³ Oil and nothing else.

If I were to allocate 5 points to Oil I'd produce 15.650m³, but I'd have 45 points left to allocate to other resources. So, I could do 10 points to Metals, equating to 50 million tonnes (just a random number by the way), 10 points to Rare Earth Metals (100.000 tonnes, also at random), etc. etc.

 

Just to make the numbers less static, but much more complex...

 


Of course the RP section will allow for some differences between the scores and how the nation is played. Jilderen will, as mentioned before, produce enough oil & gas to satisfy the home market, but export very little (and preferably only to nations that really need it. It is, given the strict laws on nature preservation and the likes, that Jilderen will have quite some deposits under control but actually not mining them. Just because it's there doesn't mean it should be collected.

So, I fully agree with the liberties than can (and should) be taken for RP purposes.

Link to comment

I think such a system could be used for other minerals. Should we wish to actually calculate our mining sectors.

 

If we tell people "Here's formula Z, it's used for oil/gas production and here's formula Y used to calculate mining of [insert various mining sectors]." I don't think there'd be any confusion just because they use the same index number in both formulas.

 

The index is just "X", you insert it to different calculations to get different results.

 

user posted image

 

The calulcation is (X+1) x 160 = Z - Y

(Y = Kermit index for very "green" nations.)

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

And also, a test version of the oil production index has gone online, check the factbook forum and select the energy tab. I've transfered my numbers for Me, Jild, O and Adaptus to that file.

 

Jild, you can lower your production number by as much as you please. (Same goes for Adaptus and O.)

 

This is from my personal file I'm using to toy around with, I changed the base to 10,000. Each index point gives a production by 160,000m³. And here you can also see fresh comparison statistics:

 

user posted image

 

Here's the converter tool I used to calculate m³ to barrels.

 

Edit: Wait. I'll have to recalculate, since I rounded the percentage numbers a bit, but now I don't need to calculate based on them. But still the picture gives a good idea of the whole thing.

 

Edit 2: The official numbers in the factbook have been recalculated.

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

Oh, I doubt there'll be much of a problem for people to understand it. It's just that this way we'll be using our Mining Score total multiple times for the whole mining sector, whilst this single score (sort of) represents the sector as a whole. So, a score of 1 would, as you suggest Suv, be used multiple times, whilst it should only be used once if you follow NationStates logic.

Link to comment

Oh, I doubt there'll be much of a problem for people to understand it. It's just that this way we'll be using our Mining Score total multiple times for the whole mining sector, whilst this single score (sort of) represents the sector as a whole. So, a score of 1 would, as you suggest Suv, be used multiple times, whilst it should only be used once if you follow NationStates logic.

NS logic doesn't always fully apply to roleplay logic, though.

 

Also, from what I understand the issue where you drill for oil effects the auto industry statistic, not mining. So oil really isn't included in NS logic.

 

Also since we're about to create OPEC and oil is such an extremely important resource it makes sense having a separate calculation for oil.

 

Having one simple forumla for oil (and gas to be added) and one slightly (or much) more complex (in the future) for metals and coal seems rahter reasonable to me.

 

Establishing metals and coal production will be much more complex given the numbers of different metals and also establishing numbers for it, like if one index point is 10 points distributed to establish metals and coal production, how do we weigh the difference on volumes produced? 1 point on coal would produce much more than 1 point on gold, volume wise. Seems awfully complex, guess it's doable, but it'll be a lot of work.

 

I've created a simple and ready to use formula for oil. Considering how important OPEC is in the real world, it also makes a lot of sense to differentiate between oil/gas and metals/coal.

 

We could use a scoring system for metals/coal, but do we feel we need NOT to seperate oil/gas from metals/coal?

(If they're all to be weighed in together it makes the scoring even more complex, not only need we consider what volume of gold equals what volume of coal, or iron to titanium, nickel to copper, but on top of that also consider what volume of aluminium equals what volume of oil, etc.)

 

And we could also now go ahead with creating the OPEC should we use a seperate system for oil/gas.

Edited by Suverina (see edit history)
Link to comment

×
×
  • Create New...