Military Numbers, Populations and Other

[Adaptus]

*sigh* Listen, I only come on Europa at the moment to make sure it's still going strong, today, I've been rather busy picking out a headstone and such for my late father, I'm tired, and at current do not have a lot of time to make large posts, so sorry for the lack of information in my previous post.

 

2,800 MBT's. Ok, does your nation really need this amount? actually, did you know that it can take up to 6 hours of maintenance a day to keep a modern tank running? Not to mention the cost of that, a new pair of tank tracks costing about ?300,000 a go. Not to mention the ammunition cost, ?30,000 for ONE HEAT round from a tank. So rather than your nation needing 2,800 MBT's, can your nation afford it. I'm not really intrested in how much money your country spends on the military each year, because that frankly if you pardon the French, bullsh*t, and many people here will agree. No country realistically can afford it, they would be bankrupt within a year. For fcuks sake, I only have about 250 and that's at a push, that's the largest part of my army, and thats including light tanks, the most a country could possible finance is about 550 including light tanks, and that would be with a quality slip. This doesn't just go for tanks, it's for all equipment.

 

I like to think of my nation based on sliders. Here is an example of Adaptus.

 

-10 being to the left, and 10 being to the right, and 0 the centre.

 

Aristocracy:_______________5____:Plutocracy

Centralisation:________________6___:Decentralisation

Innovative:-10___________________:Narrow-minded

Mercantilism(Planned Economy):___________________10:Free Trade

Offensive:__________0_________:Defensive

Quality:_-9__________________:Quantity

Serfdom:__________________9_:Free Subjects

 

If you get where I'm coming from here.

 

Not take a look at some key areas here. Quality and Quantity, Innovative and Narrow-minded, Offensive and Defensive. These mainly effect a nations military, its only one or the other in other words, there is no perfect compromise.

 

It's common sense damn it.

[Beautancus]

*sigh* Adaptus, I understand that you might be a bit stressed now, and my deepest regrets to you for your loss, but: please try to maintain a civil tongue, or key-finger however you prefer. Being an admin doesn't give you the right to use condescending or foul language (however tame it is, however you misspell it, and however much of a sergeant you might be, or British, because that's an excuse I've heard time and time again) to a peer, particularly in a situation like this- where there are obviously differing opinions and approaches. I find that in this sort of arena in particular civil and level headed discussions work the best, for example ours this afternoon, which I feel accomplished a great deal. Also, rather than going about this as a belligerent, and since you said you were trying to make sure the region was running alright, why not offer friendly and polite suggestions as a friend, rather than attacking- especially considering that I'd like to think the region is a more varied, and interesting place with MH and I than without us. Neither of us have had anything to do with you up to this point, and I must admit (though this is not a serious grievance- one that I hope will not curtail the possibility of a friendship between us, this is my honest to god opinion here) it's rather annoying to just have you show up and begin dictating how a story that is by and large ours will run. Period. I take great pains to have my material fit in with the region's standards, and up until you (and this includes frequent contact with a number of other mods/admins) there have been no problems. I understand that you feel that you have a great deal of real life expertise- but I assure you, we do also, I would appreciate you at least assuming that in part about us- since it's so vital that we have to concerning you. That leads into my next point, kinda.

 

It is not common sense- it is an arrived upon and drawn from a body of material directly relating to an isolated community that you have been a part of for a much longer time than we have. You are entitled to your opinions, whether or not they align with the region's consensus or not. I imagine that they do match the regional consensus...or at least with most of the folks here- but it does take a while for folks to catch on to all the particulars, and considering this is the first time it's come up since MH has been here, I don't understand all the hostility, which I can almost feel coming off the computer screen. Also aside from using the NSeconomy or some other such similar site's numbers- even as a rough draft- how are we to have anything that can be publicly accessed to go off of? Wouldn't it be more prudent, and realistic to come up with a system to define those statistics concretely (and if there is one in place, please direct me to it), as opposed to simply relying on the first whistle blower, and economic statistics biased towards the real world- where nations with 5 billion people do not exist- at all?

 

I personally find that slider to be a bit restrictive and ambiguous. Are there any alternatives? If so please (anyone) provide a link. I'm sorry that it might take an extra few minutes to look into, but it will save me (and some others I'm sure) from this sort of aggravation in the future.

[Deltannia]

I think Adaptus is also just voicing a long-term concern we've had with realism as of late. People have stopped listening to realism and have been posting absurd claims. I like Haruspex's enthusiasm over many things in the posts, but some of the things said later start to get ridiculous, and they don't stop getting ridiculous after repeated reminders by mods and admins, and it's not just Haruspex either. Perhaps Adaptus' language was too strong, but please keep in mind that Europa has stood for a bit of realism and good roleplaying, and that doesn't come without checks and balances which people are ignoring.

[Miiros]

Adaptus doesn't need to be rude though, to voice his opinion. And Beautancus is right in a sense that applying real life figures to nations of 5 billion is very constrictive. Picture some of these nations in Europa as being economically superior to any real world equivalent and then imagine them as having nearly the population of the entire Earth at their command. Miiros could obliterate 300 tanks if they invaded. Some of these numbers aren't so crazy if you take the gigantic populations into account and the fact that these large populations live in highly advanced industrial nations. Also, take into account the culture of Machina Haruspex, which is very different than any existing in the real world.

 

Ask yourself what it would take to successfully occupy a nation with a population that immense? A hell of a lot of men and women with shiny guns. If we use the 2% rule on a nation of 5 billion, they could field 20 million combat troops and that's using a 1:5 ratio for combat to support. No sense in attacking Haruspex and belittling them, which is the distinct impression I received from reading Adaptus' comments. From what posts I have read, Haruspex is a superb RPer and is a valuable addition to Europa.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Miiros (see edit history)

[Social Democratic Confederation]

You're right, Miiros. They talk of "realism" in an unrealistic setting. Applying, nay, forcing real-world numbers on something so blatantly unreal is to make the game unrealistic within its parameters, and thereby removes what semblence of reality might be reflected. I think Adpt is wrong here. The rules clearly say 2-5% of your population is acceptable for military size, and here he's advocating this breaks the rules. Also, the economic limits of NS nations are much, much higher, as you stated. Being able to put 15 trillion into defense would fit quite realistically if one has 20 million combat-troops.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Social Democratic Confederation (see edit history)

[Haruspex]

For the support in this matter I am grateful. Though I realize also this brings up quite a bit of other concerns not directly related to myself as the Haru. It would seem to me, to be regional elitisim. What is fine for one nation, is not appropriate for another. Time isnt a factor, you can rot for a year in a region, and that is supposed to mean something? A large nation poofs into Europa and it's back to the stone age.

 

I realize that I myself am on a thin stretch due to my recent bit of rule breaking and I am trying to be accomodating to any set of rules and regulations.

 

I've modified posts here and in the RP bits to reflect the " realism " bit. Truth be told though, you direct me to the government spending of a nation as large as mine, and I'll adhere to it. My nation's military might is based off of the 1992 Russian Army. Where they spent 35 Billion on that total list. Haruspex spends 15 Trillion. That buys alot of HEAT rounds, maintance and other things.

 

 

[Vocenae]

Ease off and take five people. This topic is getting extremely heated and has the possibility to get nasty.

 

However, it isn't elitism. Europa is known for it's heavily realistic EPs. Adaptus and the rest of us mods are trying to preserve that while adapting to people who seem to be wanting to be bigger and better than everyone else. Remember, just because you do have a large nation doesn't mean that you have to have an equally huge army.

[Deltannia]

I would just like to point out the numerous discussions we've had on scaling the number of people in our populations because of the unrealistic numbers. Several times in the past we've had this discussion and in the end just decided it was best to ignore the huge numbers, it doesn't make sense for so many nations to have billions of people.

 

I understand people have different budgets and sociological make-ups and I think that's fine, otherwise we'd all be the same nation. But, I think you're taking the word realism and twisting it. The rules were written that way, yes, but like I've said, we've had discussions on them and have agreed that they are wrong. We don't mean realism in the sense of following rules that come from a game with numbers that don't make sense, we mean realism in terms of realism. SDC, you yourself said we're trying to take realism and put it on unrealistic numbers and it doesn't make sense. But I've seen two references to the 2% rule (1-5% depending on who you ask, I used to think 1-2% was correct from numbers I've crunched) just now, and that's taking some realistic number and also putting it on unrealistic numbers as well. We're dealing with NationStates' major flaw here, and that's the population count we've always had to adjust to in the past.

 

If we take realism according to the limits of NationStates, we might as well be lobbing nukes at each other, the damages would have been catastrophic in all past events.

[Haruspex]

I had a marveleous reply coming, but it's really not going to change anything. So I've scrapped it. This discussion has the potential for me to say something I believe and have it become something else entirely.

 

You want to talk to me about this, look at my contact information to continue.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

Take this, for instance:link

 

US Military:

Active: 1,426,000

Reserve: 858,000

Tanks: 7650

Aircraft: 3200

Nation Pop: 300 million, give or take.

 

You're telling me that a nation 18 times that size musn't have 2800 tanks? That seems a little backwards, don't you think? One might argue, "The US is an imperial, militaristic nation who's put disproportionate amounts of money toward defense." True, but so are MH and SDC, who also put large portions of their GDP toward defense.

 

But you maintain that a nation almost twenty times that of the US can't have a military proportionately large?

 

Like I said, the 2-5% rule fits NS well. Limiting our numbers to fit the real-world doesn't. If we aren't going to use NS, then how do we determine any numbers at all? Or are numbers unimportant?

[Adaptus]

I'm sorry this has demolished your thread a little MH but I'll split the topic a little later when I have more time.

 

SDC, what we are trying to say here, is that Nationstates populations is the unrealistic thing, that's what we're trying to get around. The only thing I can say, but it is not the best way, that is, divide your nation population by about 100, it;s the only thing I can think of to get a descent sized population in NS.

 

If we use big numbers, RP's then turn into nothing but, "My UBER L33T 5million tanks, are way better then your, so they kill you poopy 3million tanks." and I've seen this happen in regions, not naming any but yes I have seen it.

 

Europa, for years now has had a major pride on the most realistic region in NS. We here at Europa do not fight with numbers, even Sun Tzu said that you never win on numbers.We here roleplay every little detail, and for that to work, you can not have an army of 5 million. Or two thousand tanks. I'll give you an example, The Long War is a good one I can think of. http://z7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.php?showtopic=1672

 

Number are not everything. A real life example is this. It takes eight, yes eight, Royal Parachute Regiment soldiers from the British Army to hold off about 100 other lesser trained troops.

 

Now take into account that most armies in Europa are not Iraqi insergents. So, pit pit eight of armies paratroopers against about 12 of another countries Marines, it makes for an excellent fight, and an excellent RP. Even the movies don't need large numbers to make massive casualties and such.

[Beautancus]

I would also like to point out to the mods and everyone else that's thrown their two cents into this that my original post had less to do with numbers and more to do with attitude. I am more than willing to work within Europa's existent parameters- as I pointed out above. I do think that you're being a bit vague Deltannia, without providing links, or at least mentioning the names of the threads that such business was discussed in. Also, the frequent use of the word realism is starting to bother me. It seems to point to a system that is ambiguous and would very hard to manage, barring a new numbers set- written down somewhere here on the forums- for everyone to read up on, and to use in regards to their IC posts.

 

One question I do have: if we start to kick the population numbers of our nations down, and therefore all their budgets, how can we justify such large territories for such small numbers of people? I know someone is going to point to Canada, or even Russia here- but how realistic is it for every nation in the world to be that size? That seems totally unrealistic to me, especially since realism is such a huge concern for the administration. Also, as per Tagmatium's urging, all new territorial claims must be roleplayed, and most of the roleplays involve military actions. How can anyone expect to expand into and hold down vast tracts of land with a handful of soldiers, even with the use of modern weaponry (which it has been pointed out to me that we shouldn't have too much of) rather liberally? Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israeli-Lebanese conflict of last year proved that it is a nightmare for any nation to invade another (even if the other is a second-rate backwater) much more invade and conquer another nation.

 

Edit: And thank you Adaptus for providing a link. I know it was floating around somewhere, but I really don't have all that much time to spend sifting through the entire roleplaying forums subset- given my own extenuating circumstances today (if anyone's noticed, I'm not a work- and very sick today.) that is very greatly appreciated.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Beautancus (see edit history)

[Akiiryu]

Okay. I am holiday, but I feel I need to briefly make a statement given I am the reality bastard. I agree with Beau and SDC on this one, both with regard to numbers and politeness.

 

India current has c.600 T-90s and has on order another 1000. This is its most modern MBT, I am unsure how many other AFVs it has. Haru's numbers with 2800 MBT is thus fine.

 

Frankly, this is a storm in a tea cup. I trust Haru's reality gene...especially as, as he has noted, he has something to prove right now.

 

Now be polite people...I don't want to have to interrupt my holiday with another public service announcement.

[Cypriceos]

Okay I know I left without a real explanation but after reading the pages and enlightenments from Adaptus and Akiiryu about "REALISM" in RP. I needed to make some kind of reply.

 

You talk about realism and how a nation with 2,600 tanks is impossible yet your company "Vickers" sells not 1 not 2 but roughly 5 different kinds of MBT's. Please enlighten me with more of your bull#$%^.

 

If these numbers are not realistic and impossible then please explain to me this:

 

1. How the Soviet Union had 12,000 tanks at Berlin by the end of WWII?

 

2. How the US a population of 300 million and growing possesses roughly 10 supercarriers, thousands of Abrams, 1 million troops , armies positioned around the globe and still remains one of the top economic powers in the world.

 

3. The German Army in WWII?

 

I guess the Allied Bombing raids over Germany and Japan and DDAY must have been fiction eh?

 

Isn't it a coincedence that Adaptus is an admin/mods and when a nation comes with a legitimately strong army "Haru" they are accused of being unrealistic by guess who? Adaptus?

 

Reasons I left? Well I it's hard to have fun and follow the rules in a region when the people who made the rules and enforce them are complete hyprocrits who are full of themselves. "Our universities are the best in Europa and our militaries are the mightiest" BS.

 

Oh and you better change your motto from "United in Diversity" to "Socialists Only" because that pretty much the only ideologies I have seen here.

 

 

[Renposa]

Okay I know I left without a real explanation but after reading the pages and enlightenments from Adaptus and Akiiryu about "REALISM" in RP. I needed to make some kind of reply.

 

You talk about realism and how a nation with 2,600 tanks is impossible yet your company "Vickers" sells not 1 not 2 but roughly 5 different kinds of MBT's. Please enlighten me with more of your bull#$%^.

 

If these numbers are not realistic and impossible then please explain to me this:

 

1. How the Soviet Union had 12,000 tanks at Berlin by the end of WWII?

 

2. How the US a population of 300 million and growing possesses roughly 10 supercarriers, thousands of Abrams, 1 million troops , armies positioned around the globe and still remains one of the top economic powers in the world.

 

3. The German Army in WWII?

 

I guess the Allied Bombing raids over Germany and Japan and DDAY must have been fiction eh?

 

Isn't it a coincedence that Adaptus is an admin/mods and when a nation comes with a legitimately strong army "Haru" they are accused of being unrealistic by guess who? Adaptus?

 

Reasons I left? Well I it's hard to have fun and follow the rules in a region when the people who made the rules and enforce them are complete hyprocrits who are full of themselves. "Our universities are the best in Europa and our militaries are the mightiest" BS.

 

Oh and you better change your motto from "United in Diversity" to "Socialists Only" because that pretty much the only ideologies I have seen here.

He does have very good points.

 

[Tagmatium Rules]

I'm slightly irritated by your inference that we don't allow anyone else here but left-wingers. This is entirely untrue. It's entirely coincidental that currently the region has more people of that particular ideology than any other. We have, and never will, force people out on their political views. Some of our older members were definately right-wingers, but due to time and RL, they had to leave the region. They've been back a few times, but had to go again, sadly.

 

About this whole damned thing about the numbers of tanks etc on the Military Trade thing. We've said all that can be said on that, and people just don't bloody listen to it. As soon as we put down those number limits, people just went ahead and ignored them. It's another on my list of things I can't be arsed to mod as it'll just mean another loosing battle. Kind of like the numbers, but oh, well.

[Deltannia]

Region size has also not been established, this was a topic during the last discussion upon making the new map. I believe Tagmatium said that there was a set scale, but nobody ever posts about it. And I'd post a link about the population size, but I believe it goes through the map discussion threads of the past which are hundreds of posts long, feel free to lounge through them at your own discretion, I'm not going to spend the time looking through all of them and from what you said I don't think you will either for the same reasons. I just know we've had this discussion several times and anyone from when Orioni was around, give or take, will recall them (I say that because she was in at least one of them). Generally it was what Adaptus said, dividing the population by 100 just for ease.

 

And if you don't like my frequent use of the word "realism" then that's just tough. I do feel like one of the old hawks now on this board, and as one of them, I'll just say that things have changed too much from what they were in the past. The point is, you guys are getting really into specific numbers that nobody really cared about in the past because we'd just automatically stay within limits and then roleplay. People who couldn't figure out their own limits usually learned or left. That's what I was talking about with the map scale above, nobody cared about it because we just went in and roleplayed and it was good old-fashion fun. This is turning into a child's game with imaginary guns and an argument ensues about who shot who first. We never had that and I don't want to have that, compromise is the best thing.

 

Like Adaptus said, look at any of the "great" roleplays of the past, everything worked out fine (with a little bit of planning, but no one was afraid to take a hit, no one was worried about huge armies or anything like that).

[Tagmatium Rules]

The Long War was set about 60 years ago, so I don't think it really counts for much in this particular topic, as we took into account the fact that populations were much, much smaller back then and the height of tech available to our nations was a bolt-action rifle or a Sherman tank.

 

I'm going to say I disagree entirely with Adaptus on this point. The fact is Haru was fine from the beginning. We can't begin to judge NS world nations by modern nations. When was the last time you saw a nation with five billion people?

 

Once again, we talk about the God-damned military numbers. We've talked about this almost every bloody month we've been here, yet we keep coming back to the same thing. 2-5% is suitable for nations. I am sick to death of military numbers and what is or what isn't acceptable. So long as its within reason, I can't see any problems.

[Akiiryu]

Guys,

 

Please, let's be civil. I agree with the points raised by both Tag and FACG. Let's stop the damned bean counting and get rping. Those who rp unrealistically will be dealt with.

[Miiros]

I recall discussing the unrealistic populations and I recall that I have stated in the past that I am opposed to dividing Miiros' population or watering it down. If a consensus was reached about changing our populations, I was never part of it and you need to post the rule somewhere. This division rule is not official and if it is, it is very well hidden.

 

These are the rules I have been operating under for over a year now. The ones that are posted for everyone to see.

 

"Respect the rules as well as our dedicated moderators, and no harm will come to you."

 

I refer mainly to this section of Europa's rules specifically!

 

Now for military. Your military is going to be 2-5% of your nation most of the time. Some nations, if they prepare 2-4 years ahead, can say 10% if they prepare big-time. This, even with preparation, will be a huge blow to that nation?s economy unless they prepare maybe 10-20 years ahead. And remember, that 2-5% is very split. It would be generous to say 50% of your military is combat. But some nations do just for the sake that this is a game and we?re not here to logistic ourselves to death, although this is important. Half of your military, if not more, are drivers of the foods, ground commanders that don?t fight, airplane maintenance, ship maintenance, etc etc etc, its all vital to having a working military. So don?t think you can have 5% of your population be all fighting. It would be generous to say half of that.

 

This is the posted official rule and it has been since August 29th, 2005. I remember discussing changing it and I remember we decided to keep it. Maybe the senate discussed it at some point; I would not know about that if that were the case, but you can't just go changing rules in some topic that is buried in the boneyard and expect new members (or even old ones apparently) to know about it.

 

As for Haru's revised numbers: I like them. I think smashing down our nation's populations is a bad idea and it constricts creativity. I love realism, really I DO. I am a mod at another RP board and I am a realism prostitute, but I feel like we are being crushed by it now and I think it is hurting Europa and hurting creativity not to look outside what exists on Earth today.

 

I am not yelling or getting heated or nasty, I want to make this abundantly clear. I am simply expressing my opinion on a very important matter. If this is over with, well I wasted my breath. I just wanted to say what was on my mind or else it would just gnaw at me.

[Miiros]

Miiros is libertarian, not socialist. There is no welfare here.

 

Learn about your neighbors before making accusations that Europa is biased. You are free to RP your nation however you see fit and there is on ongoing discussion right now about realism. Feel free to offer your opinions in a civil manner before storming off in a huff or flinging about accusations.

 

As for people not listening Tag, that is when you would dish out warnings, yes?

[Deltannia]

Cypriceos, your argument's one flaw is that you forget that Haruspex has just started roleplaying on this board. As time goes on, these things build. Everyone, including myself, who starts out, has tried to play a downplayed role. But as Tagmatium said, it's not so much about the numbers, and like I said, it's about the roleplaying. Also, Adaptus may sell through Vickers more than one kind of tank, but he never said he had that number of them. Deltannia's navy has a large variety of ships, but we don't have a an incredibly huge number of them. That's the difference there.

 

As to the political ideologies on this board, that is utter nonsense. Europa has hosted such a wide array of different ideologies across the spectrum over the years, I've always thought it incredible that we could all get along and look beyond that. Apparently not now?

 

If this is the way you feel, so be it, I am sorry that you do. We aren't forcing anyone to stay, we'd just like that you do.

[Deltannia]

I recall your opposition Miiros and it is well noted.. I agree, it was never official, we never said that, and I do agree with what you raise, fair enough.

 

Also, several people have commented that we only believe in what's has happened in real life, this is not true. Our cultures are a very testament to that fact. I think people aren't making the connection of realism = possibility. In a simple example, no one can just summon up several trillion dollars to fight a war because it's not possible (unless you take into account hyper-inflation,etc.) I simply don't believe that a nation can just summon that up so quickly, Haruspex hasn't been here that long, no offense to you, but I haven't a problem with a buildup of those forces whatsoever. I think that is what was so bothersome to me at least. Everyone agreed in the past if someone simply came up with large numbers of stuff, it was ridiculous. No one ever argued with a buildup.

 

I will admit now that Haruspex's numbers were not as far off as I thought in the first place, but I still believe they are too high. It seems that enough people are against me on this so I won't pursue it further, I haven't the energy nor the desire to rip us apart further.

[Miiros]

You have a very valid point, FACG and I agree for the most part. I was referring to military numbers and population and not culture when I was saying think outside of Earth's limitations.

 

Also, Beautancus and Haruspex both came into the region with military buildups already in place due to culture and the fact the two have a nice war with eachother planned. They are very unfriendly neighbors and I think larger numbers for the military would be logical and realistic when the nation next to you would love to see you in ruin.

 

But now I am speaking for them, which is presumptuous of myself and perhaps rude. You also said that you wished to let this rest and I'm being a might bit mean in continuing and for that I am sorry. =)

[Social Democratic Confederation]

Wow. I missed half of this thread... I'll just reply directly..

 

@Apt: You want me to have 48 million people? After I've been Rping as though I've had 4.741 billion? I side with Miiros and on this, I'm vehemently opposed to losing 4.693 billion people.

 

Beau has a very good point. SDC is IC readying to possess six plots. How would I "realistically" hold such a large stroke of land with 48 million people? Tag informed me a scale was established. It's on the map discussion thread (last page). He said

 

...it was something like 5cm = 1000km...

 

Making my strecht a vast one. 48 million? Be realistic here please.

 

@FACG: Quite so, the region has changed. Even I can remember a time unlike now. Still, it's changing. I see myself, Beau, MH, Miiros, Aki and Tag all arguing for change against you two. It seems like most of us prefer a change here, and two hardlining old-timers are vetoing any change, still clinging to an older forum dream where Orioni and Tam are still around.

 

@ All: We should be rooted in reality, not buried in it!

Edited July 18, 2007 by Social Democratic Confederation (see edit history)