Discussion of Military Wares

[Adaptus]

MOD COMMENT: You may want to check some of your products, and images, looking very similar to VWS products, and in the RW thats copyright infringment.

[Renposa]

OOC:I wasn't aware such infringments were even European Law. Nevertheless I shall not honor them.

[Cypriceos]

MOD COMMENT: You may want to check some of your products, and images, looking very similar to VWS products, and in the RW thats copyright infringment.

OOC: Adaptus it's kind of hard not to avoid that when you sell only every single brand of tank and assault rifle in your shop.

 

You only have:

Leclerc

Merkava

Challenger II

Russian T model tanks

 

Fighter Planes:

Flankers

F-18

Panavia Tornado's

Eurofighter Typhoons

Dassault Mirage

 

Assault Rifles:

M16

AK-47

G36

FAMAS

 

See that's my rant. Some countries want to be like Russian and make their own weapons or French weapons but you have them all which ruins the T/D fun. This reminds me of EA games.

[Renposa]

MOD COMMENT: You may want to check some of your products, and images, looking very similar to VWS products, and in the RW thats copyright infringment.

OOC: Adaptus it's kind of hard not to avoid that when you sell only every single brand of tank and assault rifle in your shop.

 

You only have:

Leclerc

Merkava

Challenger II

Russian T model tanks

 

Fighter Planes:

Flankers

F-18

Panavia Tornado's

Eurofighter Typhoons

Dassault Mirage

 

Assault Rifles:

M16

AK-47

G36

FAMAS

 

See that's my rant. Some countries want to be like Russian and make their own weapons or French weapons but you have them all which ruins the T/D fun. This reminds me of EA games.

PERFECT! This will drive even greater competition and fuel the european war gear thirst while boosting the regional economy.

[Tagmatium Rules]

OOC: Yeah, sorry, Adpt, it's really not worth the whole "Moderator thing" if they're using the same stuff as you are. It'd verge on abusing the system if you forced them, as Mod, to stop selling this stuff purely because your own nation was.

 

Commenting OOC or pursuing this IC would be ok, but not attempting to Mod them.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Tagmatium Rules (see edit history)

[Akiiryu]

OOC: I concur with Tag.

[Tagmatium Rules]

Essentially, Adpt, I agree with Cyp over this one. Your nation's arms company produces every known bit of kit produced in the last twenty or more years. It's bloody unrealistic. VWS would have gone broke buying all the rights to production for all those different items, let alone the fact that they'd have to have hundreds of different plants producing the many millions of different components needed for so many different tanks, firearms and the like. On top of that, the sheer variety of equipment means the Adaptus must be filled to the brim with shed-loads of surplus which are never used or bought by anyone. I think I've probably gone a bit over-board with the range of different weapons in the same categories my nation's Imperial Armouries makes, and it isn't a patch on the sheer amount VWS makes, although most do have a niche in the Tagmatine Armed Forces.

 

Plus, the weapons Cyp has could be Cypriceos-made copies of the originals, the rights obtained from the same source (illegally or legally) or even entirely different weapons but using modern-day images to represent these, as no other images could be found (there's a programme somewhere using which you can make your own rifle designs that is often used on the main boards on NS, but I've yet to find it).

 

I think we're going to have to come to some sort of consenus on this before we do continue.

[Republic of Red Iberic Workers]

I think the best for all is to produce one type of every weapon or vehicle so and for example a nation "X" only could sell or produce:

 

- 1 Type of main battle tank.

- 1 Type of heavy tank.

- 1 Type of towed artillery.

- 1 Type of mecanized artillery.

- 1 Type of Anti Tank (non-mecanized.)

- 1 Type of Anti Tank mecanized.

Etc. etc.

 

I think this is reality, because every real nation gives its products a recognizable design (like T-... from Russia or M... from USA, for example in tanks), and it doesn?t change in many years. Only we could add improvements to the old models but the design wouldn?t change a lot of the original and old model.

 

Also but this is another question I would propose to every nation to define and limit its army, for a better roleplay, for avoiding discussions and for realism. So I would fix a concrete limit to our armies or we could fix approximate numbers. For me, the limits would be based in more or less real numbers (for example a maximum army of 3 or 4 million soldiers for everyone.)

[Social Democratic Confederation]

3 or four million for a nation with 4 or 5 billion wouldn't make much sense either. Rather say 2-5% of one's population as the limit.

 

And I, too, find myself siding with Tag, Cyp, Aki and RIW over this.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Social Democratic Confederation (see edit history)

[Akiiryu]

We've discussed military sizes ad nauseam, but SDC is right 2-5% of a country's population is generally about right. This includes all military personnel (not just the guys with the guns at the front).

 

To give you an example (from memory, so the numbers are not exact) 600000 Canadians served in the CEF during WWI At the Time Canada's population was c.8000000. Thus c.7.5% of Canada's population was serving overseas (no all at once - there were no more than c.440000 serving at one time). This was a HUGE drain on the country, both economically and socially.

 

 

 

 

[Republic of Red Iberic Workers]

 

I think this is a nationstates unrealistic problem... The population grows very quickly and a normal nation have 1 billion (I think 1 billion it is the american name: 1.000.000.000, not english or spanish name: 1.000.000.000.000) when the reality is very different (only China and India.) It is only a opinion but I would prefer a number limit to the army, only for better roleplay and for realism, and also a bigger nation doesn?t mean a bigger army, for example if you see the biggest armies: China, USA, Russia, North Korea (population of 25 millions!!)...

But not: India, Indonesia or Brazil (the last with a very little army so only China fulfill the statistics.)

 

It was only an opinion and to avoid hypothetical discussions in any war, fixing each nation a credible army with numbers based in bought armament or self-manufactured armament.

[Akiiryu]

There is nothing stopping a large nation from having a small army.

[Tagmatium Rules]

Uh, could we get back on top and discuss the fact that so many nations are attempting to sell the same bits of kit?

[Haken]

Sorry Tag, but I just have to state one thing on the army size-issue. I never understood why everyone prefers "realistic" numbers, "realistic" as in real life. However realistic numbers for NationStates, a world that is just a bit sillier but enormously larger, would be -in my eyes - with million-sized armies. How do you plan to occupy a 5 billion nation with 600,000 men?

 

Carry on.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

Well PDRK (North Korea) does have a massively sized army for it's size. But, one must also analyze the failure os it's economy, the distrortion of the social structure, and the fact it's run by a short, crazy dictator.

 

While PDRK's standing army is proportionally large, if it was forced to mobilize, I can almost garuntee the strain on the economy from trying to sustain an active army that size will crush the economy, cause rebellions and revolts and ultimately ruinn Kim Jong Il. Also, I think it'd be safe to assume they're drifting toward some kind of upheaval anyway, with or without war. War, though, would just accelerate the process.

 

Aki's got a good point too, no limit on how small an army can be. 2-5% is just an estimate of the size of average military sizes in the real world. It is possible to go larger, like the PDRK, but the propensity of doing so in peace-time is the idea born of folly.

---

 

Setting a concrete limit on military sizes would be quite unrealistic as well. Observe that the numerical size of most armies grows with that of it's nation's. More people = more soldiers. Quite simple

---

 

Back to the topic: Yes.

 

I would say that Adaptus' "rights" to all of those weapon system is also unrealistic.

 

Your nation's arms company produces every known bit of kit produced in the last twenty or more years. It's bloody unrealistic. VWS would have gone broke buying all the rights to production for all those different items, let alone the fact that they'd have to have hundreds of different plants producing the many millions of different components needed for so many different tanks, firearms and the like. On top of that, the sheer variety of equipment means the Adaptus must be filled to the brim with shed-loads of surplus which are never used or bought by anyone.

 

I'd agree with RIW a little.

 

1 or 2 tanks per nation, stuff like that. In real life, the US uses only two tanks: M1A1/2, M60. 7 or 13 would be, well... see quote above.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Social Democratic Confederation (see edit history)

[Republic of Red Iberic Workers]

 

While PDRK's standing army is proportionally large, if it was forced to mobilize, I can almost garuntee the strain on the economy from trying to sustain an active army that size will crush the economy, cause rebellions and revolts and ultimately ruinn Kim Jong Il. Also, I think it'd be safe to assume they're drifting toward some kind of upheaval anyway, with or without war. War, though, would just accelerate the process.

 

Humm... What happens with PDRK? Any problem?

 

I love "Arirang Massive Games" and I don?t want that they disappear... They are impressive. I love the PDRK state channel, with his strange newsreader, the shabby serials, and what about the big dipper? with its antiquate and eighties style, the golden winged horse in the middle of a gigantic square... It?s a grief that these things disappear.

 

I am a bit "ostalgic" about the artistic things but I understand they are crazy. They have degenerated the right sense of socialism much time ago but nowadays they give off a stale flavour but unique in the world.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

I... don't... know... How does this relate to either military sizes or military wares?

[Republic of Red Iberic Workers]

1 or 2 tanks per nation, stuff like that. In real life, the US uses only two tanks: M1A1/2, M60. 7 or 13 would be, well... see quote above.

 

It is true... I would impose a limit to armament types, for example:

- tanks: heavy, light, recon and amphibious;

- artillery: towed and selfpropelled howitzer;

- Anti-Tank: portable and selfpropelled;

- armored: recon, mechanized infantry and transport;

- Anti-Air: portable, long range (missiles), medium range (guns and missiles);

- air force: fighter, superiority air fighter, fighter-bomber, ground attack, medium bomber, big bomber, transport, recon and air support;

- Helicopters: transport, attack (ground or fighter);

-Navy: cruiser, aircraft carrier, destroyer, frigate, submarine, corvette, gunboats, submarine chaser, minesweeper, transport (cargo and troops) and oiler.

 

[Social Democratic Confederation]

Limits on Military Gears:

 

Armoured Vehicles:

• Heavy,
• MBT
• Light//recon
• Infantry Fighting Vehicle
• Armoured Personell Carrier
• HummVee

Artillery:

• 2 SPH
• 2 Towed
• 4 Types of Mortars

Infantry Weapons:

• 2 (different) Assault Rifles
• 1 SAW
• 1 Mounted MG
• 1 HMG
• 1 GL
• 1 AT
• 1 SMG
• 1 Pistol

Anti-Air Craft:

• 1 3 SAMS (for Infantry, vehicles and emplacements)
• 2 Types for Aircraft
• 2 Types for Naval

AirCraft:

• 2 Air Superiority
• 1 Fighter-Bomber (Ground Attack)
• 1 Light Bomber
• 1 Heavy Bomber
• 2 Cargo Transports
• 1 Gunships

Helicopters:

• 2 Utility (transport)
• 2 Attack
• 2 AWS

Naval Craft:

• 2 Aircraft Carriers (Fleet Carrier and Super Carrier)
• 1 Cruiser
• 2 Frigate
• 2 Destroyer
• 2 Attack Sub
• 1 Ballistic Sub
• 1 Gunboat

 

I think this is a bit better...

[Vocenae]

This is why I decided to never get involved with the military trade area, lol.

[Tagmatium Rules]

Infantry Weapons:

• 2 (different) Assault Rifles
• 1 SAW
• 1 Mounted MG
• 1 HMG
• 1 GL
• 1 AT
• 1 SMG
• 1 Pistol

What about different patterns of the same gun? My assault rifle is available as a carbine, standard rifle, sniper's rifle and a light machine gun. It's basically the same gun, but with a longer/shorter barrel, pistol grip or scope.

[Republic of Red Iberic Workers]

 

I think the two ideas are compatible... It depends of the free will of every weapons manufacturer.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

@ Tag: So, therefore, it is the same gun right? I have a similar thing with my Mg with all the sub components. Even though I didn't post them all, it (in real life) has 15 configurations. All in all it is the same gun with a slight modification.

 

I suppose that going from M16 to M16A2 could be two different posts in which you could talk about the improvements. But owning the M16, FAMAS, G36, AK101, ect. is a bit hoggish, unfair and unrealistic. At least I think so.

[Adaptus]

Ah crap I missed half a thread again. I never said no one could sell those things. that's what design right are for. Many countries just but the rights to build their own version of a certain weapon, it's as simple as that.

[Tagmatium Rules]

I never said no one could sell those things.

Well, you kind of did...

MOD COMMENT: You may want to check some of your products, and images, looking very similar to VWS products, and in the RW thats copyright infringment.

Plus, the fact that you sell so many products, there is almost no point anyone else selling them - you already have most of them.

Many countries just buy the rights to build their own version of a certain weapon, it's as simple as that.

What I think you mean is that (correct me if I'm wrong) a nation could, conceivably, purchase the rights for the manufacture of a weapon (say, the M16 of the USA) and continue to make and use that weapon, but not sell it on their store front. Which is fair enough. But I still think it is rather unfair, not to mention pretty unrealistic, that VWS has managed to buy the rights to most of these bits of equipment already.