Discussion about Military Sizes

[Akiiryu]

Split from: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.php?showtopic=2826

 

Mod Comment: Good work, I believe, however, that uoir military numbers are more than a little unrealistic. I mean, you're saying over half your country's popluation is the military! That is just not economically or demographically possible.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

I forgot to talk about how a mojortiy of them are reservists (because of the conscription). They lead a civilian life and go to refreasher courses in turns, keep the cost lower than would be expected. Only about 1/3 of the forces are active, and they spend their days on bases maintaining vehicles and facilities.

 

Plus I have something like 17 trillion in defense. If you count the exchange rate (which favors me over NS$), there's even more buying power... the system supports this set up...

[Akiiryu]

Even so, your numbers remain unrealistic. Demographically speaking I serious doubt that your country could find enough adults (of bothe sexes) to meet those, even if they were only reserves. Moreover, economically speaking even with a 17 trillion dollar defence budget, you'd struggle to train, equip and pay (let alone feed, house etc) such a military force, even if they are reservists.

 

The following is taken from our rp advice page http://z7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.php?showtopic=1396:

 

OK, face it, young ones, you?re not going to be able to create your nations, come to the forums, buy the most advanced modern-tech tanks in the world. It takes time to develop. While you don?t need to sit down and create a thread saying ?I?m developing a tank for my storefront!? you should make sure you think about statistics, fluff (description), and other things before you create it. Then you should give it development time, depending on what it is, one or two real days.

 

Now, buying equipment. You?re not going to create your nation, come onto the forums, declare you have a twenty-trillion dollar military budget, and buy a thousand Navy Carriers. You have to go to Third Geek or some other NationStates Calculator (links at end of thread) and find out your budget. Now, it says how much your spending in military, education, etc, but you don?t necessarily have to follow where they say you put it and how much you put into it. And buying things. A 99 million and bellow populated nation shouldn?t be buying weapons of mass destruction. Wait ?til you are 100 million to even start your programs. Nukes are dangerous weapons and shouldn?t be in the hands of the newer nations. I don?t care that a three-hundred billion population nation is donating it to you! It is GODMOD on these forums and that is that. Period. Dot dot dot.

 

Now for military. Your military is going to be 2-5% of your nation most of the time. Some nations, if they prepare 2-4 years ahead, can say 10% if they prepare big-time. This, even with preparation, will be a huge blow to that nation?s economy unless they prepare maybe 10-20 years ahead. And remember, that 2-5% is very split. It would be generous to say 50% of your military is combat. But some nations do just for the sake that this is a game and we?re not here to logistic ourselves to death, although this is important. Half of your military, if not more, are drivers of the foods, ground commanders that don?t fight, airplane maintenance, ship maintenance, etc etc etc, its all vital to having a working military. So don?t think you can have 5% of your population be all fighting. It would be generous to say half of that.

 

Keep records of whatever you buy. I usually keep them in a notepad or Microsoft Word file. I also keep records of most of my major posts and what I sell. This helps keep you organized and realistic.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

I see you play by different rules. In my old region we used an NS military calculator to come up with our military numbers. I dont remember the xact adress, something with 'bananadine' in it... anyway, I have no problem wiht playing by the rules. I'll change the numbers...

 

EDIT: The numbers have been scaled way down... Is there a way to delete my posts?

Edited July 17, 2006 by The Aristocratic Confederation (see edit history)

[Orioni]

OOC: I remember some sort of military calculator being available in the region "Western Europe". I found this link here: http://home.hetnet.nl/~henkwillems/war_rules.htm It works with points and seems rather complicated to maintain, since in real life you can only collect taxes once a year. You'd have to wait a whole year before being able to 'refresh' your military.

 

I know I only RP from time to time (it's been a while since my last war), but I always imagined we didn't exagerate your militaries. I'm aware of the fact that some nations have a population of billions, but it seems a bit daunting to be up against an army of 250 million for example. And if you take alliances into account, that number can go up to even a billion.

 

Nice intro by the way.

[Social Democratic Confederation]

Cool, I found that I have 5530 points in the military. Im rather lazy at 2:30am, so I won't bother buy purchase things from their website. But my scan over of those rules still insist I have a BIG military... but if the numbers are still too big I will cut them again...

 

EDIT: I cut the mubers again, I think it should fit you requests. Please understand just how massive my economy is. 80 trillion national GDP and 32% of that is in defense...

Edited July 17, 2006 by The Aristocratic Confederation (see edit history)

[Tagmatium Rules]

OOC: Do you want this lot split off and moved?

[Orioni]

But my scan over of those rules still insist I have a BIG military...

No worries. According to NS Tracker, my defense budget is 33% (53.73 trillion) and law & order 27% (43.96 trillion). Using that would kill the world for sure.

[Tagmatium Rules]

I find these military calculators difficult to get my head around; also I'm particularly lazy and I can't be bothered to work my army out. I tend to go for fairly conservative numbers in these respects, and my army is well equipped but also has many down-sides, like no special forces or submarines.

[Akiiryu]

I agree with O and Tag, conservative is better. Moreover, those calculators are always are useful or realistic as you might think. Oh, and just for comparison. Akiiryu has a GDP of 97,765,661,921,760.00 Ler (X by 1.58 for nation states dollars) of which 44% is spent on the military and 37% on law and order. As O says, that is enough to kill the world if taken seriously for army numbers. I might finally add that sometimes it is better to have a smaller, better equipped and trained military rather than millions of drunk peasants with crude spears.

[Tamurin]

Well, this discussion plays a little in my hand...

 

If we play our wars with numbers and tech only, then it's gonna be really dull. I'm the only one here not having F-22 and F-35 in the hundrets in his Air Force - I'm using Tornados, F-14 and JAS-39, and I'm still alive. I think I could use Me 109 or Fokker Dreidecker and still be alive, 'cause a Tornado doesn't stand much of a chance against an equally qualified pilot flying an F-22.

 

What we need is "quality RP" rather than "quantity RP". The NS population numbers are ridiculously high; we can't use them. I think we need a new basis here. And I think it should be: Area.

 

We have a four-plot limit on our map and the 500-million-rule for new plots. I'd suggest this:

 

- One plot: Minor power

- Two plots: Mediocre power

- Three plots: Regional major power

- Four plots: Major power

 

This rough categorization can be modified by a nations' way of spending money.

 

- No money for defense: -

- Average: <<no symbol>>

- Much money for defense: +

- Most money for defense: ++

 

By this categorization, the following well-known nations would be this:

- Tamurin: Regional major power + (3 plots (islands don't count), defense is mentioned on NS-website)

- Orioni: Major power + (4 plots, defense is mentioned on NS-website)

- Akiiryu: Major power + (same as Orioni)

- Adaptus: Mediocre power + (2 plots, defense mentioned)

- Pirilao: Regional major power (3 plots, defense not mentioned)

- An imaginitive nation having "...defense almost getting no funds" would have a "-"

 

 

A mediocre power concentrating on defense would naturally be more powerful than a regional power spending most of its money on social welfare or a major power spending none of its money for defense.

On the other hand, a minor power using F-22's fighting a major power using F-4's would have a technological advantage, but a disadvantage in numbers. Thus, the outcome would depend on other factors than tech or numbers.

 

 

 

What do you think about this?

[Akiiryu]

The NS population numbers always lead to trouble eh? I agree, but, to be honest I think Akiiryu would be a ++ simply because it spends roughly 44% of its budget on the military. Still that is a minor quibble and something that can be discussed at a later date. The idea itself seems sound. I also like your points about rping.

[Pirilao]

Well.....

By this categorization, the following well-known nations would be this:

 

- Pirilao: Regional major power (3 plots, defense not mentioned)

 

 

 

 

What do you think about this?

 

The World of PIRILAO

Live is a Dream

Region: Europa

NationStates Page

Domestic Statistics

Government Category: Compulsory Consumerist State

Government Priority: Law & Order

Economic Rating: Powerhouse

Civil Rights Rating: Below Average

Political Freedoms: Rare

Income Tax Rate: 100%

Major Industry: Uranium Mining

National Animal: AGUIA

National Currency: euro (?)

Total Population: 3,000,000,000

 

Administration: ?7,703,556,840,000.00 14%

Social Welfare: ?1,100,508,120,000.00 2%

Healthcare: ?1,100,508,120,000.00 2%

Education: ?7,153,302,780,000.00 13%

Religion & Spirituality: ?6,603,048,720,000.00 12%

Defense: ?5,502,540,600,000.00 10%

Law & Order: ?12,105,589,320,000.00 22%

Commerce: ?2,201,016,240,000.00 4%

Public Transport: ?1,650,762,180,000.00 3%

The Environment: ?5,502,540,600,000.00 10%

Social Equality: ?4,402,032,480,000.00 8%

Economic Details

Exchange Rate: ?1 = NS$1.0654

Gross Domestic Product: ?55,025,406,000,000.00

GDP Per Capita: ?18,341.80

Unemployment Rate: 10.46%

Consumption: ?0.00

Government Budget: ?61,139,340,000,000.00

Government Expenditures: ?55,025,406,000,000.00

Government Waste: ?6,113,934,000,000.00

Imports: ?6,810,075,000,000.00

Tracker Info

[Tamurin]

Well, the exact numbers of + or ++ can be, as you said, discussed later and maybe attached to those NS-stat numbers - no problem.

 

Thanks for your quick feedback. The number-and-tech thing is something that's bothering me about our RPs for quite some time; I hope that a new system will help to sort this out and "navigate" our RPs into a new way.

[Akiiryu]

I quite agree Tam, I have felt that way also.

[Adaptus]

Or you could do what I do, and base your military on a real life military. I base mine on cross between the British Military and US Military, using British Military Numbers, and US Military equipment. But my excuse is my military is extremely small, like the British Military. That?s how I can have many advanced things. But for instance my Air Force only has about 130 Combat Aircraft and only about 80 main stream fighter aircraft. I only have about 8 Aircraft Carriers, maybe 10 maximum. I also only have about 220 Tanks, 150 Main Battle Tanks, and 70 Light Battle tanks, but that?s only because we use a two tank corps system. But that?s how I work out my military. 100,000 troops, (Which I sent into a conflict once), was about 80 - 90% of my combat troops in my front line army

[Haken]

What do you think about this?

I'm thinking my not thinking about this ongoing discussion works fine by me.

 

Not being mean here, but do we really need offcial rules for this?

Edited July 17, 2006 by Haken (see edit history)

[Vocenae]

I wouldn't so much think of it as a rules discussion, but more of a discussion of example guidelines.

 

 

[Mongol-Swedes]

Going back to Akiiryu's comment on how one could find enough military fit people in a population:

 

Personally, I can find it possible to find, in my nation (whose population I estimate about 3.5 billion, haven't had a real nationstate nation for about a year and a half now) around 3 million people possible to create a force capable of being deployed overseas and fighting an effective guerilla war, another 9 million for a 'national guard' that trains part-time, and also, as a socialist collective, require every able-bodied male (like many countries do today) to do a mandatory term of service, and train each and everyone of them to be able to defend the homeland, should the enemy attack me. And that's just males alone.

 

So it all depends on how you fight. If I were trying to maintain a heavy conventional force, yes, it would be difficult. And for nations as large as mine population-wise, being that many nations here are bigger than any real one, applying the models of other nations (especially since my strategy is very different from anything else in the world) is difficult for me. Thus, I feel that models such as mine are very realistic, despite there being no real world model to base my nation off of, given the nature of my overall defense strategy.

[Ravenhelm]

i'm not going to roleplay for a while, so i only have one comment about this.

 

[Miiros]

We have a four-plot limit on our map and the 500-million-rule for new plots. I'd suggest this:

 

- One plot: Minor power

- Two plots: Mediocre power

- Three plots: Regional major power

- Four plots: Major power

 

This rough categorization can be modified by a nations' way of spending money.

 

- No money for defense: -

- Average: <<no symbol>>

- Much money for defense: +

- Most money for defense: ++

 

By this categorization, the following well-known nations would be this:

- Tamurin: Regional major power + (3 plots (islands don't count), defense is mentioned on NS-website)

- Orioni: Major power + (4 plots, defense is mentioned on NS-website)

- Akiiryu: Major power + (same as Orioni)

- Adaptus: Mediocre power + (2 plots, defense mentioned)

- Pirilao: Regional major power (3 plots, defense not mentioned)

- An imaginitive nation having "...defense almost getting no funds" would have a "-"

 

 

A mediocre power concentrating on defense would naturally be more powerful than a regional power spending most of its money on social welfare or a major power spending none of its money for defense.

On the other hand, a minor power using F-22's fighting a major power using F-4's would have a technological advantage, but a disadvantage in numbers. Thus, the outcome would depend on other factors than tech or numbers.

 

 

 

What do you think about this?

What about people who don't want to have four plots, but have the population for it. Say a nation insane enough to cram its entire population into a super-city? =P I would not consider Miiros to be a minor power when we are usually in the regional top twenty for various economy related UN polls.

 

Minor power... *grumbles* I'll give you minor power... =P

Edited July 18, 2006 by Miiros (see edit history)

[Social Democratic Confederation]

True... I have 2.5 billion (I seems to be repeating myself) and 32% of my budget is for defense. The one plot thing is merely the side effect of being new here...

[Tamurin]

@Miiros:

 

Well, I certainly have the numbers for a fourth plot, but I don't want it because I don't see Tamurin as a major power here. I'd have to change the whole "character" of the nation and the military (which lacks strategic attack weaponry), I feel quite comfortable as a regional major power.

 

@Adaptus:

You can still do that with my guidelines. These "rules" (yes, Haken, I think we need them) are not there to prevent you from creative role-playing, they should just be guidelines for a military engagement. Too often there has been a not-so-well-planned military RP here that ends with arguments like this:

 

"My 4 million marines are deployed within 2 days at your shores, protected by my six fleets of 55 carriers and 137 battleships, in the air 829 B-2 bombers roaring with a protection of 6527 F-38 "Super-Raptors", covered by my ion-pulsar space-based weapons platform (the development I roleplayed two hours ago here at http://z7.invisionfree.com/europa/me_rulez.php)."

"No, my super-killer special space marines with their T-137-extreme edition tanks will crush you within a second. Look here at http://www.nationstates_stats.com/r0xx0r_rulez_kick_@ss.php you can clearly see that I can buy 1.726.382.193.382 AK-47 or 652.818.326 aircraft carriers with my weapons since I have 13.7 billion citizens."

"bla"

"bla-bla"

"bla-bla-bla"

"..."

 

I hate that. I really do. It kills the fun in RPs. With a few guidelines you could say:

 

"I'm a regional major power +".

"Well, I'm a major power ++. Prepare to get your invasion force killed off."

"Hm..."

 

You could still customize your military. These guidelines don't care if you use T-90 or M1A1. But people would know where they'd stand. And being member of an alliance would get real benefits.

[Tagmatium Rules]

Tam, I don't think you are giving much credit either to the RP mods or other RP'ers in this region.

[Vocenae]

From what I've seen in my time here is that most, if not all of us use moderation when it comes to military action, and we all seem to get along well enough.

 

Not trying to be harsh, so please don't take it that way.

 

But we really don't need rules unless we suddenly get an influx of inexperienced RPers, until then I think that if anyone comes in saying they have uber-armies we should kindly point out that this is a realistic based rp forum, and provide help when it comes to shrinking armies down to realistic sizes.

 

It's worked so far, why change it?