9/11 Truth

[Bashovia and Erbery]

hey guys,

 

As this is the general forum I thought that this is probably the only place this topics fit in. Since we are in a international forum I would like to know what you citizens of the world think acctually happened on 9/11. This may be controvertial and I hope no one here gets offended, I know that it is here in the US, were my friends and relatives refuse to listen to the evidence I present to them. I conside myself a responsable citizen and believe that it is my duty as a citizen to raise these issues whether or not people want to listen in my country, so first I would like to see how you all recieve it.

Do you believe the US governemnts story that they did not know that planes could be used as weapons? That they had no forewarning of an imminent attack when the israelis, russians, germans, and british intelligence told them it was comming? that one plane could bring down the WTC and that jet fuel (slightly higher occtain that KEROSINE) could melt IRON. Did you know that Al'Qaida was funded and trained by the CIA (Al'QaC.I.A.da). that the leader of Al'Qaeda is part of the Carlliale group as is George Jr. and his father. You all saw the images of the buildings collapse . What did it look like to you. I saw a neat, clean, controlled demolition in downtown Manhattan. how did WTC7 collapse, not hit by a plane. The owner of the WTC property admits he "pulled it" with explosives. have you ever heared of PNAC (project for the new american century)?

 

I hope this does what it was intended to do and create discussions. Since we all portray governemnts, we should know what governments are capable of doing... thankyou for your time and please visit www.prisonplanet.com and www.infowars.com

 

I say goodbye from a land were Patriots are considered unamerican and Democracy is just a pretty word

 

long live liberty, down with the fascist ursurpers! (remember Jeb Bush's Florida)

 

 

 

[Upper Strathyclyde]

I am all for questions, all for interpreting and asking about what happened, as long as we all don't get swept away by the bleeding liberal Micheal Moore idiots out ther, who mock the actual event, for a vote and a few extra bucks.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Upper Strathyclyde (see edit history)

[Bashovia and Erbery]

Moore is an idiot, he was afraid to ask about some of the truly upsetting questions. Why? i don't know, maybe he was threatened. All I do know is that he didn't ask some critical questions, such as; why did those planes reach their destination? they should have been shot down long before arrival in the nofly zone, thats called standard policy. they were flying in the most secure airspace in the world and NORAD stepped down on that day. That shouldn't have happened, military policy dictated that if they go of course, a automatic scrammbler gets set off and military planes automaticly sent to shoot it down, right? Cheney changed the law so that it was not a military affair but that it was up to him to give the order to shoot it out of the sky. Cheney changed the law 3 or so months before the attack You should watch "loose change", good video. I hope you are not suggesting that I am swept up in Moore liberality. This doesn't have to do with the president being republican, this has to do with the PNAC document which states that it needed a new Pearl Harbor to convince the american people of the need to implement their doctrine. You can find this yourself at their website under the document "rebuilding americas defences in the new century" or somthing like that. I implore the americans on this forum to seek this out and see it with your own eyes. it's on their damn site, and the signers of this document include Wolfowitz and many others.

[Bashovia and Erbery]

I would never mock a event that killed thousands and lead to the death of so many more in the two wars we have fought since these people got their way. Just a factoid: in the patriot act there is a clause that states that it is a crime worthy of imprisonment to say that the governemnt should be overthrown. last I knew, that is a fundemental aspect of out social contract. The power of a governemnt rests on our consent. nowadays it is a crime to take your consent away from the gov.

[Upper Strathyclyde]

I'm a Libertarian. I am all for revolt against tyranny, and I agree that our civil liberites are being unnesseciarily curtailed for the sake of "Security". I did not mean you in that moore comment. It was more a caution than anything.

[Bashovia and Erbery]

I now understand US. Libratarianism is quite interesting, i agree with much of it. I believe the best governemnt is one that falls under the classification of a watchman state. I am also very sympathetic to minarchism...

[Upper Strathyclyde]

What I find most interesting is how today's Republicans in Congress spend like a drunken Liberal, and how our government is bigger now, than it was under the Clinton Administration. You had Black Helicopter Freaks everywhere then. Where are they now? I'll tell you where: Oregon and Idaho. Out by themselves, along with Randy Weaver.

[Haken]

I don't think 9/11 was part for some big government conspiracy, but they did make some mistakes. There was enough information about the upcoming attack. Ironically the guy from the CIA who pointed out this evidence, and was ignored, has been killed on 9/11. he was in one of the towers.

Then again, I guess Intelligence gets so much info that they need to set priorities. You can't investigate every rumour and you can't shut the whole country down for every possible terrorist act. Also I sure don't want to be the guy responsible for shooting down an airplane full of citizens 'just to be safe'.

[Bashovia and Erbery]

Well, in the U.S. military it had been policy to try to get radio contact ,if they failed attempts must be made to maintain visual contact. If contact can't be made policy dictates, or it did until recently, that the plane must be shot out of the sky so it would not be utilized as a weapon to further destruction. Just like it is the U.S. governments policy to not negotiate with terrorists; shoot it out of the sky. They didn't.

[Tamurin]

I remember 9/11 and the months before very well. Let's recapture that:

 

The United States were on their way to isolationism. The EU was replacing the US as mediator in the middle east talks between Israelis and Palestinians. George W. Bush didn't know any name of any head of state and people all around the world were talking about disarming and abolishing their military, because nobody thought that another war could come up after the end of the Cold War.

 

Terrorism? Not an issue.

 

Everybody on this planet was totally suprised and shocked when he/she saw the WTC collapsing. I know that I returned from work (knowing nothing) and seeing my mother in the living room. She stared at the TV still holding a plate with soup in her hands - at that moment she stood there already for about an hour. I sat down and watched the whole evening.

 

After that, the whole world (including Iran (!!!)) was offering help.

 

 

Conspiracy stuff emerged when Bush went after Saddam and the Iraq and people were beginning to critizise his way of dealing with the situation. Then everything came up: Bush, a religious fanatic. Bush, not even really elected. Bush, in secret cooperation with bin Laden. Bush, financed Al Kaida in Afghanistan in the 80s (which is just plain wrong). Bush, wanting to fight Saddam to finish what his father has started. Bush, leader of a conspiracy to kill 3000 people in NY.

 

That's all crap. Read the 9/11-report, released by the Senate. You will see why the US was kept by surprise. The methods to deal with terrorists were outdated and the country was "asleep" in peace, not expecting any threat.

 

I've heard enough of this conspiracy-crap. Next thing they'll say is that the Roswell aliens were commanding these aircrafts...

[Upper Strathyclyde]

Interesting indeed. Well correct me if I am wrong, but Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, so we'll leave that out of this conversation for the moment. IMO, we were 100% justified to go after Afghanistan, considering that we had reletivaly credible evidence at the time that pointed to Bin Laden's whereabouts in the area. Unfortunately, we decided to let the Northern alliance go in at Tora Bora, and we lost him..again.

 

I remember the day it happened clearly. I was a Freshman at Mason High School, a reletively large city. I was in my Honors Math class when the towers hit, and a Teacher rushed into the room, whispered something and we watched CNN the rest of the day, in stunned Silence. When I got home, all I could think about is how on earth could anyone attack the most powerful country in the world. then I realsied that america was not as powerful as we thought. The Oceans seemed smaller these days.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Upper Strathyclyde (see edit history)

[Tagmatium Rules]

I'm of the opinion that the US Government didn't have much to do with the attack upon the WTC, possibly because I don't really want to imagine a government that would happily sacrifice 3000-ish of its own citizens for something that may not be fully attainable.

 

I do think that an attack on Afghanistan was at least partly justifiably, but one on Iraq wasn't. It's especially amusing how the justification for the attack on Iraq has changed drastically over the last 3 years.

 

Plus, I think Michael Moore is fully of sh*t. He's nearly as bigotted and opinionated as the people he protests against. Especially in comparing the British military in Northern Ireland to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

 

But it's nice to have some-one voicing their opinions on this board, even though it may devolve into a flame war

Edited April 8, 2006 by Tagmatium Rules (see edit history)

[Adaptus]

I've got one thing to add to this.

 

9/11 was commited by Al Quaeda, and so was 7/7 supposedly commited by the same group. Now how come on 7/7 55 people died, in tube trains and the bus, when is that was a government conspiricy, to go along with the amreican one, then then the Queen would have know, and if she know, she would have had Tony Blairs head on a plate, 'cos she aint one to piss about with her people.

 

 

[Upper Strathyclyde]

I have high respect for Her Majesty, The Queen. She is a very patriotic English Citizen, and she does indeed stick up for her people.

[Adaptus]

Ok, i've just found this on the interweb, now i find it quite wired.

 

1) New York City has 11 letters

 

2) Afghanistan has 11 letters

 

3) Ramsin Yuseb [The terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in 1993] has 11 letters

 

4) George W Bush has 11 letters

 

 

This could be a mere coincidence, but this gets more interesting:

 

 

1) New York is the 11th state

 

2) The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight number 11

 

3) Flight 11 was carrying 92 passengers

9 + 2 = 11

 

4) Flight 77 which also hit Twin Towers, was carrying 65

passengers

6 + 5 = 11

 

5) The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11 as it is now known.

9 + 1 + 1 = 11

 

6) The date is equal to the US emergency services telephone number 911

9 + 1 + 1 = 11

 

 

Sheer coincidence..?! Read on and make up your own mind:

 

 

1) The total number of victims inside all the hi-jacked planes was 254

2 + 5 + 4 = 11

 

2) September 11 is day number 254 of the calendar year

Again 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

 

3) The Madrid bombing took place on 3/11/2004.

3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 11

 

4) The tragedy of Madrid happened 911 days after the Twin Towers incident

 

 

Now this is where things get totally eerie:

 

 

The most recognised symbol for the US, after the Stars & Stripes, is the Eagle. The following verse is taken from the Quran, the Islamic holy book:

 

 

"For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle.

The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced:

For the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah and there was peace."

 

 

That verse is number 9.11 of the Quran.

 

 

Still unconvinced about all of this..?! Try this and see how you feel afterwards, it made my hair stand on end:

 

 

Open Microsoft Word and do the following:

 

1. Type in capitals Q33 NY. This is the flight number of the first plane to hit one of the Twin Towers.

 

2. Highlight the Q33 NY.

 

3. Change the font size to 48.

 

4. Change the actual font to the WINGDINGS

 

 

Quite astonishing.

[Tagmatium Rules]

Personally, I think it's sheer coincidence, like those crazy bible codes.

[slades_29]

American Air #11

United Air #175

American Air #77

United Air #93

 

These were the flight numbers of the 9/11 attacks, just googled the Q33 NY thing, interesting but nothing in it, it seems.

[Tamurin]

Conincidence.

 

Take your time and you'll find a lot of those things...

 

Just one here I found out:

 

(German History)

 

The 20th century of Germany is more or less dominated by november 9th (there's again your 9/11-thingee, just vice-versa, and your 11-thingee):

 

November 9th, 1918: The Monarchy ends, the Republic of Germany is announced by Scheidemann (Social Democrats) and Liebknecht (Communist). This day marks the end of WW1, the root of all bad in the 20th century, and the beginning of the German Civil War 1918/1919 and the Republic of Weimar.

 

November 9th, 1923: Hitler-uprising in Munich. The uprising fails when bavarian police opens fire on the uprisers. This day shows how right-wing groups destabilize the Republic of Weimar and it also shows what could and ultimately will happen to Germany.

 

November 9th, 1938: "Imperial Crystal Night", a night in which houses and shops of jewish Germans are destroyed, many jewish Germans are attacked and injured. It shows what Germany has become - a racist nation with a violent and completely inhuman government. This day stands for the darkest period of German history and the end of pre-WW2-Germany.

 

November 9th, 1989: The Berlin Wall falls, the borders between West and East Germany are opened. This day marks the beginning of the end of the legacy of WW2. Germany is reunited in 1990, the Cold War ends within year, the soviet union ends, East Europe regains its freedom. It's a very good day for the history of the world, and it started in Berlin.

 

This all happened on November 9th. So, what do we conclude?

 

That there's a huge chance that on this day happens something great and that's it's either very good or very bad?

That you shouldn't go out on November 9th, you could be killed by communists, nazis or falling walls?

That November 9th is worse than Friday 13th or better than Christmas?

 

No, it just shows us, that we have so much information at hand these days that you can kill someone with massive amounts of "proof" for some conspiracy theory - or that even history has humour.

[Orioni]

I would not fall for that. Although the conincidence is striking, they are only 4 days in 100 years. I don't believe all those numerological reasonings. Afterwards it's always easy to say "oh yes, those and those numbers, we could have knows". Bollocks. There is always some way you can calculate stuff so it fits within whatever you are trying to prove.

 

9+1+1=11

1+1=2

Two towers collapsed

What does that teach us?

That the number two is evil?

Or that airplanes and buildings don't mix?

[Bashovia and Erbery]

I've seen that word-font thing before and it is weird. I have to ask myself when that program was made, if it was done before the 9/11 attacks occured, it could raise some interesting questions. at any rate, it is inconclusive and doubt has much validity.

 

Have you guys ever heard of Larry Silverstein? He's the owner of the WTC complex who got a lease protecting his investment in his real estate from the U.S. government before the attack. He admitted in a PBS documentary about that day that at 5:30 on 9/11, WTC 7, which was not hit by an airplane collapsed due to a fire that had lasted not even three hours. He stated:

 

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

 

That is his statement that they demolished WTC 7 due to small fires that could not have damaged the structural integrety of the building. He addmitted to preplanted explosives in WTC7. Although no one has admitted to explosives in the other buildings, simply having them allocated, prepared to be used shows that there was some reason He thought it nessesary to have explosives installed in one of his properties

 

These are some points regarding the nature of the collapse:

 

* The fires in WTC 7 were not evenly distributed, so a perfect collapse was impossible.

* Firemen anticipated the building's collapse (even though fire had never brought down a fire-protected steel building prior to 9/11).

* Silverstein said of the building "the smartest thing to do is pull it."

* WTC 7 subsequently collapsed perfectly into its footprint at freefall speed.

* Molten steel and partially evaporated steel members were found in the debris.

 

If you are interested in seeing with your own eyes videos of WTC 7 collapsing you may go to this site:

 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

 

another question: Does anyone know the defenition of a put-option? it has to do with the stockmarket.

 

 

[Vanarambaion]

[rant]

First of all. Name calling. Can it. I'm very touchy on the topic of 9/11, and while I can discuss it, calling people like Jeb Bush "fascist usurpers" will only elicit anger from me. Regardless of what you think of the Bushes, they were elected using the Constitution and laws of the United States. Sure money helped get them to the election, but I find the idea that some type of corruption was involved to be quintessentially unAmerican in the most basic sense of the term. No one called Clinton a fascist (or a communist, or anything else) even though half the country wanted his head on a pike. He was deomcratically elected, the same as Bush. If you don't like it, get on with the Democrats and do something about it that way. Don't sit back and lob obnoxious insults at him, when none of us has any clear idea what it was like to live under an actual fascist regime. It has nothing to do with patriotism. Disagreeing with leaders is patriotic. I disagree with Bush. But I will never call him a fascist, because he isn't, and calling him one only undermines the very institutions that put him, fair and square, into office, making it unAmerican. OK? Thank you.

[/rant]

 

As far as 9/11, I think it's hard to remember what it was like for the intelligence community prior to 9/11. In that era, hijacking planes meant a hostage situation, not crashing it into a building. The military wasn't activated on foreign intelligence reports, because that would have endagered the hostages the gov't thought would ensue from the situation. The idea that fuel would melt iron was immaterial, as it didn't occur to them that it would be used as a weapon, based on prior knowledge. The CIA never taught the Al Quaeda to use planes as weapons, because Afghanistan doesn't have a large plane industry or a large bunch of buildings to crash them into. Also, the idea that this was a controlled toppling of the buildings is absurd. Not only were there American citizens in those buildings, but one plane can certainly topple a building of that size. WTC 7 was toppled later because the structural integrity of the building was compromised when the Twin Towers' debris hit it at full force. There was nothing to show that that was a controlled collapse, and it's lucky it collapsed as it did, frankly. There should have been a lot more damage in the area than there ended up being.

 

I believe what's going on here is alarmists and anarchists are spreading propaganda around, and while it sounds feasible on the surface, when you actually take a look at what's being said, it can be easily picked apart. I'm not saying anyone here is either one of those, just be careful whose "facts" you listen to.

[Haken]

Open Microsoft Word and do the following:

 

1. Type in capitals Q33 NY. This is the flight number of the first plane to hit one of the Twin Towers.

 

2. Highlight the Q33 NY.

 

3. Change the font size to 48.

 

4. Change the actual font to the WINGDINGS

 

 

Quite astonishing.

Yeah, but what has Q33 to do with 9/11?

[slades_29]

it was supposedly it was the flight number of one of the planes that hit the towers, but its not. it was started as an internet rumour in the months after 9/11.

[Adaptus]

Ah well, I thought it was good at the time I found it.

[slades_29]

then then the Queen would have know, and if she know, she would have had Tony Blairs head on a plate, 'cos she aint one to piss about with her people.

 

Nah she just pisses on us