The Gas Wars

[Adaptus]

woudering if anyone has heard about this, i thinks it's quite comic myself, no offence to anyone from the Ukraine. but i think it just shows that all the old Soviet influence hasnt left the Kremlin. basicly whats happening is this. Russian is upgrading to Nuclear power, and well that means they have to more use for gass lines, and well the min gass line for the Ukraine runs through Russian, so Russia said to Ukraine, no more cheap gass, we want a 4 fold increase in what your paying for your gass off us, or we'll cut off your gas. Ukraine's responce, stuff you, we're not paying that, so Russian has went and cut off the Ukraine's gas supply.

 

what a way to carry on haha.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...xportaltop.html

[Akiiryu]

Why shouldn't Russia demand fair market rates?

 

And let's not forget the UK royally screwed NZ when it joined the EEC.

[Gomaria]

Somehow some part of me wants the U.S.S.R to come back and take over again and restore order. Im on Mother Russia's side on this one.

Edited January 1, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Tagmatium Rules]

Russia should be able to demand fair market rates, but this is apparently going against treaties and agreements between the two nations before. And it also does like like a more or less purely political measure by the Kremlin to influence the parliamentary elections in the next month or so.

 

Plus, I really think Russia is fracturing. They are in constant strife with a lot of the little Caucus republics, as well as very poor control over other areas of itself.

[Gomaria]

This very well could start large protests and riots....*Like that hasn't happened already*.....this is an interesting subject. I still stand on what I believe.-Let them do what they want I shall take the point of view of a Famous economist and philosopher "Adam Smith" who believed if you let things in the economy go and no goverment intervention there of that everything will work it self out. By goodness I *don't* hope "NATO" or some goverment organization along with the librals step in and tell Russia they can't do that........* just let things work out.*

 

*No offense to any nationalities or any ethnic groups this is how I feel if I have offended you my sincere apologies*

Edited January 2, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Adaptus]

i'm not saying Russia shouldnt ask for more money, but to be hounist, a 360% increase in what Ukraine way paying before is quite alot, now would you pay that?

 

what drew me to this market conflict is the fact of Ukraines reslieance, and now i see why, i never relised it was a 360% increase. also it has now sparked a large scear throught Europe, as a massive price rise is expected, and also for the UK, we have no back up line, our lines from France and Germany can be cut in time of crisis, now at the momonet that seems likley, also the only back up line the UK has id direct from St. Petersburg to the UK, but wont be finished till 2010.

 

 

[Gomaria]

Gazprom if behind the ordeal with a natural gas monopoly and political officials are saying that there is no sight in the future for Ukraine and Russia to make an agreement or any talks for making an agreement. Viktor Yushchenko is trying to work out a deal but I do believe this is a closed matter with Russia and Gazprom.

Plus Russia is using the gas to build up its Nuclear Power.

 

 

 

Is the USSR coming back or is this just a dispute?

 

Adaptus what "time of crisis" were you talking about?

Edited January 2, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Akiiryu]

I still stand on what I believe.-Let them do what they want I shall take the point of view of a Famous economist and philosopher "Adam Smith" who believed if you let things in the economy go and no goverment intervention there of that everything will work it self out. By goodness I hope "NATO" or some goverment organization along with the librals step in and tell Russia they can't do that........* just let things work out.*

 

I don't get your logic here. In one sentence you say that Russia should be able to do what it wants and in the second you say you hope someone steps in and tells them "they can't do that".

 

More over, it seems your understanding, along with the majority of the world's, of Smith's argument is a little haywire. I dodn't have time to go into at the moment, but reading Smith and then comparing the way he is quote and used to day is quite an interesting exercise...especially when you realise he believed that humans were innately moral animals.

[Gomaria]

@Akiiryu Getting ahead of myself, I changed it. Just so I can clerify this and don't pull a "John Kerry" I *do not* want "NATO" or some goverment organization along with the librals to tell *Russia* that they can't do that.

 

More over, it seems your understanding, along with the majority of the world's, of Smith's argument is a little haywire. I dodn't have time to go into at the moment, but reading Smith and then comparing the way he is quote and used to day is quite an interesting exercise...especially when you realise he believed that humans were innately moral animals.=?

 

Point being?

Edited January 2, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Adaptus]

Adaptus what "time of crisis" were you talking about?

i was talking about this gas crisis, you may not call it a crisis yourself, but i would, this situation hangs in the balance. if Russia is to cut off it's gas supplies complete, as it has threatend, then Europe has lost 25% of all it's gas supplies. now, all of British gas comes from Russia. so untill 2010, we do have a crisis on our hands. also if Germany or France deside to cut the lines of gas to the UK we would then also be in trouble. at the end of this, it will show you how devied Europe realy is, or it will show you how united it is.

[Gomaria]

.......interesting subject......will do adaptus.....i shall prceed with an investigation on this matter .....do you believe the threat from Russia is just mind games to get what they want?.......

Edited January 2, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Gomaria]

I hope this is information you can use adaptus....

 

I wonder if this is WWIII?

 

If this is considered spamming just tell me *I feel this is important information that is vital to the people of Europe*

 

 

 

Germany, which gets more than one third of its natural gas from Russia, said it has enough stored gas to last up to 75 days. The country's largest gas supplier E.ON Ruhrgas said its big customers may be hit if the delivery cut turned out to be long and the winter remained cold. Chief Executive Burckhard Bergmann said he saw no problems for smaller customers, including households and small businesses.

 

 

Italy's Eni, which gets about 30 percent of its gas from Russia, said supplies from Russia were down 24 percent from normal levels. Chief Executive Paolo Scaroni said at the weekend gas stocks covered 15 days' consumption, but added Italy exports gas-generated electricity to European neighbors and might run down gas stocks faster than forecast.

 

 

French utility Gaz de France said it is following the situation very closely and looking at precautionary measures it could take to secure supplies.

 

 

Poland said Russia's cut in gas deliveries to Ukraine has reduced Poland's supplies by 14 percent, but officials assured consumers the shortfall would be covered with domestic reserves. Economy Minister Piotr Wozniak said on Sunday talks were underway that may enable Poland to compensate by increasing the amount of gas flowing in from Belarus.

 

 

Hungary's natural gas imports from Russia via Ukraine have dropped by more than 40 percent, according to oil and gas group MOL. The firm said it would cut gas transit to Serbia and Bosnia by a similar amount.

 

 

Austrian oil and gas group OMV said its Russian gas supplies were down by around a third. OMV said it could cushion the cuts by tapping reserves and increasing domestic output. It could not rule out limited reductions in supply to its biggest customers if deliveries fell further and temperatures dropped.

 

 

Czech supplies from Russia via Ukraine are so far unaffected, importer RWE Transgas said. The Czechs receive around two-thirds of their gas from Russia, the rest from Norway.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Gomaria (see edit history)

[Gomaria]

Monday 02 January 2006, 20:33 GMT 20:33 UK

 

Russia vows to end gas shortage

Russia vows to increase gas supplies as EU countries report a fall in pressure after Moscow cuts Ukraine's supply.

 

 

Russia says it will pump more gas to Europe after various countries said their supplies had fallen by up to 40% after Moscow cut Ukraine's provision.

France, Italy, Germany and Poland were among those reporting falling volumes.

 

Russia said it was sending an extra 95m cubic metres a day to make up for gas "stolen" by Ukraine.

 

Ukraine denies it has siphoned off $25m (?15m) worth of gas from a pipeline crossing its territory after Russia cut off its supply in a price dispute.

 

 

Russian gas monopoly Gazprom raised the price of 1,000 cubic metres of gas from $50 to $230 and Ukraine refused to pay.

 

 

Gazprom is still charging the lower price to some former Soviet countries, though the average price in the EU is $240.

 

Moldovan President Vladimir Voronin said his country had also been cut off, after refusing to pay $160 per 1,000 cubic metres, according to the Itar-Tass news agency.

 

 

 

[Tamurin]

This has nothing to do with economics.

 

The Ukraine has a president that is not the choice of Moscow, and Moscow is now punishing the Ukraine for that. The prize-thing is just an alibi-reason. If the russian candidate would've won the elections, this "gas war" wouldn't happen.

[Pirilao]

Gas row causes concerns over energy supply

 

The gas crisis has raised concerns in Europe about Russia's reliability as an energy partner. European Commission officials will be discussing the situation in an emergency meeting tomorrow. Gas demand is at peak levels across the continent as winter hits hard.

 

About a quarter of Europe's natural gas is supplied by Russia, with some countries more reliant on it than others. Germany and France have large reserves of 75 and 45 days respectively. But others like Poland and the UK have only enough for a couple of weeks.

 

News that stocks have been replenished following assurances from Moscow will bring relief to governments and domestic consumers alike. But the dispute has highlighted the EU's dependence on Russia and the union's lack of a common energy reserve policy.

 

There is still no sign of negotiation between Moscow and Kiev and while that remains the case Brussels will continue to monitor the situation nervously.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pirilao]

Moscow and Kiev clinch gas deal

 

Moscow and Kiev have reached an agreement to resolve their gas dispute. After marathon talks in Moscow, the chief executive of Russian state utility Gazprom Alexei Miller and his Ukrainian counterpart from Naftogas Alexei Ivchenko announced the accord. "I am very happy with the outcome of the negotiations," Miller said. Gazprom got its way with a fourfold price increase to 230 dollars per thousand cubic metres - however Ukraine will not actually pay that initially, as Russian gas will be mixed with cheaper supplies from central Asia. That gives Kiev a price of 95 dollars.

 

The agreement is valid for five years. European Union energy officials meeting in Brussels have welcomed the news. The accord ends a row which culminated in Gazprom cutting supplies to Ukraine on Sunday after Kiev rejected the cost hike. Relations were further poisoned when the company accused Ukraine of siphoning off deliveries meant for consumers in Western Europe - a charge the Ukrainian authorities vigorously denied.

 

The dispute came against the backdrop of political tensions dating back to Ukraine's "Orange Revolution," when President Viktor Yushchenko vowed to bring his country closer to NATO and the EU. Kiev suspects Russia is using the gas issue to undermine the government ahead of parliamentary elections.

 

[Europa]

if Russia is to cut off it's gas supplies complete, as it has threatend, then Europe has lost 25% of all it's gas supplies. now, all of British gas comes from Russia. so untill 2010, we do have a crisis on our hands. also if Germany or France deside to cut the lines of gas to the UK we would then also be in trouble.

I though the UK had gas reserves enough of their in the North Sea, I even believe they are/were (?) a net exporter of gas.

 

The nations who'll be most effected are Eastern and central european nations, mainly Hungary, Poland, Germany, that area.. Northern, Western Europe are supplied mostly by Norwegian, Dutch, English North sea gas, while South Europe more depends on Algerian gas.

[Adaptus]

yes, but it would still be a big blow to some countries, dont you think?

[Europa]

Certainly, without any doubt.

 

[Scipii]

The UK only imports 2% of its gas from Russia.

[Gomaria]

Thank goodness it's over...............

[Gomaria]

Italy has had to dip into its gas reserves to make up for a shortfall in supplies from Russia, Italian energy group ENI has said.

 

 

It says it had to use four million cubic metres of gas from reserves because supplies were 5% below demand.

 

Russia has denied reports that it is holding back gas for its domestic market because of freezing conditions.

 

Italy's Industry Minister Claudio Scajola has called a crisis meeting with energy firms to discuss the issue.

 

The announcement by ENI came after news agencies reported that Russia's state-owned Gazprom had cut supplies by 20% to parts of Europe because of cold weather.

 

According to the reports, gas flows had been cut on the route to Hungary, which also supplies Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 

But Gazprom spokeswoman Olga Moreva, quoted by AFP news agency, described the reports as "incorrect".

 

"We are fulfilling all our obligations," she said.