OOC discussion for TCN Invasion

[Tagmatium Rules]

Once again a Mod has had to step in and close a thread. I am not blaming any one, but there has been several counts of Godmoding on both sides. But this is where we have to go to discuss this sort of thing, as well as RP trolling.

[The Chosen Nations]

RP trolling?

 

[Akiiryu]

If I may start.

 

1) We need to get back to pre arranging our rps, especially when it comes to military rps. The 1st Tam Civil Car was excellent for that.

 

2) Certian rpers need to realise that bloodyminded rp trolling is not only going to get their nations into trouble, but also make other rpers dislike them.

 

 

 

 

[The Chosen Nations]

What is RP trolling?

[Tagmatium Rules]

RP/Role Play Trolling: Deliberately provoking conflict as the sole aim of your posting, that is to say provoking OOC conflict with IC rp posts.

[Nevareion]

edit: tag said it

Edited September 27, 2005 by Nevareion (see edit history)

[Haken]

But I like IC wars.

 

 

[Ide Jima]

Maybe it wouldn't be so much of a problem if we kept all the OOC crap to a thread like this, whilst the IC stuff went on the main one.

[Akiiryu]

Good point, but I still think we need more planning.

[Ide Jima]

that too

[Bhalman]

Aye, I agree, we need more planning

[Vanarambaion]

Very well, now I can defend myself.

 

Tag, I did post that mobilization was taking place. I'm not going to post "Southern Army mobilizing" because when Vanarambaion mobilizes, the whole damn army mobilizes. Now for a history lesson:

 

Vanarambaion is a nation run by the military. It wasn't always like that, but for the vast majority of Vanarambaion's history, the nobility and monarchy and the military have been intertwined, leading to the entore government, from top to bottom, being run by the military. The police and civilian authorities are military establishments, the mail is delivered by the military, etc. The military has full range of the budget and GDP, and the only semi-independent authority is the Church of Vanarambaion, which is based around the Holy Emperor's leadership.

 

Aside from this, the military budget for dealing with things the military traditionally deals with is astronomical in comparision to other countries. This has been the case since the Pot Wars. The number of people (consider that military service is obligatory in Vanarambaion) available for service at any one time is also extremely large. The Southern Army is one of the smaller armies, believe me.

 

 

Now, let's get around to the problems at hand. Godmodding. I object to that. Firstly, the nation in question has not had time to fortify their coast to the point that it would hold up tens of thousands of troops for very long. The ShadowCorps took a few casualties, as did the regular troops, but that wasn't reported in the press release. This has been the way of the Vanarambaion press and government for a long time. If the press prints something the government doesn't want it to, they are eliminated. So they print a rosy report. In reality, things were a bit bungled, hence the failure to take Saone on the first night. Also, the area north of Saone is empty in comparison to the rest of the country - effectively, I have given him time to respond since I have not taken or even engaged Saone. Also, assuming that the troops were somehow unable to land on the beaches, the columns advancing out of Europtiman territory (a former colony, and with the Holy Emperor's nephew on the throne of Europtima, the relations there are close) would have easily been able to sweep aside the resistance, allowing those troops to land.

 

Now, about my being unfair in any way. The Vanarambaion military has a pecking order, just like every other government. The Navy and Air Force get the lion's share of the budget, with the Army coming in last in the pecking order. I did not have a gargantuan bombing raid or extensive sea-based attacks to accompany the invasion. In fact, the navy only bombed necessary targets to help the landing. The Air Force did NOTHING other than dropping members of the ShadowCorps inside TCN. I find that to be self-sacrificingly fair to TCN.

 

Now, why didn't TCN see them coming? Several reasons. 1. Conventional radar doesn't pick up objects that are lower to the water than normal. Landing craft would fall outside of the effective range of the radar of TCN or almost any other nation. Even if they had happened to pick up the craft, (think of the radar scene in Pearl Harbor, the movie) who would believe 3000+ blips are headed toward land in perfect formation? 2. The ShadowCorps was landing in front of the troops to knock out such pesky devices as the radar stations, and observation points before the operation began. 3. TCN was in the process of mobilizing, leaving a significantly depleted border defense team. Basically, until his army is fully mobilized (which he didn't post that it was), defenses are at peacetime strength, which means severely depleted. Even for nations like Vanarambaion that can mobilize in a matter of days (see above), during mobilization, it is at peacetime strength. 4. Every nation besides Europtima (where half the troops came from), Akiiryu (air support and the reason for going to war), and Ide Jima (closest ally to TCN) was deliberately kept in the dark about the actions of Vanarambaion. There was no reason to suspect an invasion because there was no contact between the nations. However, I did post the mobilization of Vanarambaion troops and the moving of troops and materiel from Northern Vanarambaion (near Tag) to "somewhere else." Where did you think it was going? 5. War didn't need to be declared, we'd never signed a peace treaty over the nuke thread war. War was a fact of life after negotiations broke down. Small oversight on someone's part, methinks.

 

Now the reasons for invasion. Akiiryu is an ally. Look at the historical threads. We were working together before Akiiryu and Vanarambaion existed in a form that you'd know them as today. While Vanarambaion may not have a total grasp on the extent and intricacies of Akiiryan "honor," someone with no sense of ettiquette could have seen that calling he Prince of Akiiryu or any other deceased government official from any nation "mediocre" is a one-way ticket to 'intense negotiations,' an area that TCN has shown himself to be totally inept at. Sorry, dude, we all have our faults, but that one is glaring and recurring, regardless of how many government changes you may have. Even you, Phil. If someone said that any of the Phils was 'mediocre' right after they died, your government would get pissed. Very natural reaction. And the lack of remorse or recompense leads to harsh consequences. And now we see that TCN has violated their statements saying they have no WMDs. And you want the Alliance to back down? I laugh at the implications.

 

Yes, Tag, I know this is supposed to be fun. I want more than anything to have the kind of peace we've enjoyed since the end of the Pot Wars (they were the last actual wars, by my estimation). But Vanarambaion is not willing to sit around while nations like TCN run around doing whatever they want. He wants too much too fast, and I am playing a nation with the outlook on WMDs like the modern US. There should be no surprise at my reaction to WMDs, and there certainly shouldn't be an surprise at my reaction to the insults hurled at Akiiryu after the death of the Prince.

 

*The defense attorney sat down, waiting for someone to start b**ching again.*

[Nevareion]

Perhaps posting that kind of information in the RP would have avoided the appearance of anything untoward? As a relative outsider I don't know any of that information unless you tell me. As TCN is not long here he might not know and his replies tend to suggest he didn't as he starts RPing secret programs not previously mentioned - he is perhaps responding in what he perceived as kind?

Just an observation and nothing meant by it

[Tamurin]

First:

As second RP-mod I support Tag's decision to stop the RP.

 

Second:

Planning is nice, but I can only propose what I've done during the 1st Tamurin Civil War: TALK VIA PM!!!

Whenever I was doing something, I wrote a PM to the "other side" (often Byzantinum Nova, Ekainak, Orioni) and said what I wanted to do. Then both sides were able to do something productive and fun and there was no "surprise".

 

That can't be too hard...

[Tagmatium Rules]

Now, Van, I can respect that. But I wasn't asking for a history lesson, as I have either participated or read those RPs in which your nation and Akiiru was concerned. I also wasn't looking for a comparison to a film whose historical accuracy can be considered "sketchy" at best.

 

I am not criticsing Vanarambaion politics, organisation or what have you or reasons for the invasion. Those are In-Character ideals which can be addressed In-Character. What I said was purely as an RP mod. The fact that those were "press releases" and therefore bias, which I didn't know, is not really the best excuse for stomping on some one's army. MAKE IT CLEAR, man. That way confusion won't arise. I also wasn't questioning the reason for the invasion, rather the method. If I didn't say it there, I must have said it to some-one on chat or PMed them.

 

The fact that you deliberately kept everyone in the dark isn't helpful, either. Make it clear what you are doing, even if it is just in-character, or PMing some-one.

 

Also, your "fairness". Even giving a pemlinatory airstrike, then waiting for a reply post, then sending your army in would be fair. Invading then waiting for a reply once your army is dance around his nation isn't. If the invasion took several nights to take place, RP it, rather than using a very brief press release to annouce your invasion and its activities.

 

You say that TCN hadn't said his army was fully mobilised, so therefore it wasn't. You didn't say your army was fully mobilised, but it was.

 

If things in reality were bungled, say they were, then make a show of the press and/or government covering it up. That way I, or anyone else, cannot point the finger. If you are going to say there was an invasion, make it as detailed as your above post. No confusion, no problem. Again, I'm critising methods, rather than activities, so the fact that that only the navy bombed bits isn't a problem. Rather that you didn't give TCN an option to reply, but I fear I am repeating myself.

 

Also, Europtima: That particular colony of Europtima wasn't part of Europtima when they were given their "freedom", but was called Endless Summer. So, I think I could have safely assumed that there wasn't a large presence of Vanarambaion military in that piece of land.

 

I think the lesson we have learned from this is make things bloody obvious before doing them, if only just Out Of Character.

 

Concerning your last bit: Yeah, the peace afforded by the end of the Pot Wars has been good to Europa. But not in the slightest fun. When you got to watch a film or play a game, you want action, excitement and thrills (admittedly, it depends on what genre of game/film you buy/see). Which we ain't got, unless stamping on any nation that doesn't toe the Vanarambaion line is fun. Basically, we need a nice, big, exciting war to liven things up and see our nations shine in their darkest hours.

 

A nation with a reaction to WMDs like the USA? What, you can have 'em or sell 'em to people, but God forbid anyone making their own or standing up to you?

 

I'm not surprised by your reaction to the death of your ally's monarch, only the way you have gone about it.

 

I know this has become a b*tching match, for which I apologise, but I ain't moderating what I have said.

[Akiiryu]

Unfortunately, some people ignore PM advice.

[Akiiryu]

Suggestion.

 

Tag, you and Tam are rp mods. Why don't we pm secret movements etc and let you keep them on file somewhere? That way when things suddenly appear you'll have a record of them. I know both of you enough to know that you're honest rpers and as such wouldn't react to secret info if you were on the other side. This plan doesn't negate the need for ooc planning such as occurred in both Tam Civil Wars.

[Haken]

I agree that we can't always tell OOC what we're going to do, because some people can abuse that IC. For example:

 

situation 1

 

Maxtopia:

IC: Bigtopia, alliance?

 

Bigtopia:

IC: sure!

 

situation 2

 

Maxtopia:

IC: Bigtopia, alliance?

OOC: Utopia, want to make a secret alliance against Bigtopia?

 

Utopia:

OOC: sure!

 

Bigtopia:

We refuse to go in your alliance.

______________________________

 

PM'ing works out fine for me, but I have more trust in Akiiryu, who is more experienced in RP.

 

______________________________

 

I'm trying to balance things out a bit with a counter-alliance. I'm attempting to make a breeding ground for more wars, would you people stop making war, so the alliance can organise itself a bit.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Haken (see edit history)

[Akiiryu]

Give you time to organise? What do you think we are stupid? LOL

[Haken]

Give you time to organise? What do you think we are stupid? LOL

Well yes, that was part of the plan.

[Ide Jima]

If it means more war, then I can wait

[Adaptus]

more war.

 

**backs away slowly***

 

 

[The Chosen Nations]

I sent a PM to Aki outlining my thoughts, but forgot to make a copy to post here! If aki could quote my proposal I would be grateful.

 

  more war.

 

**backs away slowly***

I know the feeling!

 

 

[Ide Jima]

No worries TCN, maybe I'll have some variation in who it is I'm fighting if Haken's alliance works

[Haken]

I'm trying to make it my alliance as little as possible. As a nation it may have advantages to control the alliance, but I don't want it to die as soon as I become less active or even if I would be kicked out. Active member=happy member=happy Haken.

 

TCN doesn't want war???

You seemed to try your best.

Ow well, it seems that this whole war began because of underestimating the reaction of the other side and confusion about the apology.