The Fate of The Chosen Nations

[Mongol-Swedes]

And my proposal is this (To ultimately help the TCN save face): A coalition of nations determine that the present leadership of TCN (I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE DUDE WHO RUNS IT OOC) is declared too dangerous for the safety of Europa, coalition invades, helps put a new democratically elected government into place, and the current one gets put on some kind of tribunal for threatening the region with weapons of mass destruction.

 

 

Already I am WAAAAAAY beyond my normal limits of tolerance. Not trying to cop out or anything, but it is increasingly difficult to deal with enlisted personnel's lack of common sense in my unit, let alone a civilian's lack of RP common sense.

Edited August 29, 2005 by Social Alliance Of Mongol-Swedes (see edit history)

[Dragonryders]

Your proposal means clean sheeting for the dude behind TCN and the nation of TCN itself.

[Meteorola]

I think that is the point.

[Dragonryders]

Yeah, that's why I voted for it.

[Meteorola]

Actually I now wish I didn't vote in this.

 

This is GODMOD on a democratic scale. The Chosen Nations must decide for (him/her)self what path to take. It is for none of the rest of us to decide.

[Vanarambaion]

Yes. Let's let him decide for himself. *Rubs hands together, and reaches for blinking red button.*

 

Ok, for the record, ret-conning is bull and a cop-out. Everyone should succeed or fail on their own merits and flaws, and we shouldn't be saving people for any reason. The learning curve here is steep, and necessarily so.

 

And I was the one person who voted for the first option, for that reason.

[Akiiryu]

I am inclined to agree with Van (In bet none of you are surprised given my discussions in chat and other posts on this matter).

 

1) TCN is copping out, and that's a fact. You can't simply role play yourself into a situation and then throw in the towel when you realise you are going to lose. It is the hight of bad sportsmanship (bad rollplayership?). Rewriting the roll play to suit your nation better (without other players agreement) simply makes matters worse.

 

2) Numerous players, especially Tag (and myself initally) went out of their way to advise TCN and help him out. God, I even suspended the nuke thread (with the help of Tam and EE - believe me I hated calling in favours and pulling rank) in an effort to stiop TCN being crushed. This does not simply relate to the Nuke thread either, TCN had been advised that his aggressive posts were suicidial on more than one occassion (note, for example the N-Riech weaponing testing thread, his insults aimed at Akiiryu over the Oceanus, and his threats to the MS over MMRTA). He refused to listen and got himself into the mess he is now in. With that in mind he needs to learn the consquences, my parents only told me not to do something so many times...

 

3) The re-writing has F'ed so many other threads it is incredible. I don't want to have to re-write all my rp posts simply because TCN doesn't like facing the outcome of his actions/policies.

 

I want to help TCN become a better rp, I really do. At the moment I think he needs to be taught that part of being a good rper is taking responsibility for your actions and accepting the consquences.

 

@Mete: TCN decided to change a rp because he didn't like result...

[Tagmatium Rules]

I find this whole discussion quite distasteful. As such, I refuse to vote on the poll, as I agree with Meteo. Is it up to us to decide how another person runs his own country? Answering my own question, I don't think it is. Yes, he may have made mistakes, but he has to learn from them of his own accord, rather than have the decisions of this sort forced upon him. Yes, he may have decided to change a RP, but this still verges on God-modding. I gave advice, but he can decide how to act at his own discretion. Hey, Pot often appeared to act in a manner dangerous to the future of Europa, but people rarely suggested a regime change, mainly because he would have kicked seven shades of pooh-pooh out of us. To a point, this can only be attempted because TCN has a population of under 100 hundred million, less than a tenth of that of some of the nations involved. We need more active forum members, and it doesn't help to jump up and down upon them if they act in a contraversial manner. After all, Europa would be a very boring place if all we did was announce "War Games" and trade agreements (I'm not digging at anyone, its just a general statement), rather than have a couple of nations slug it out against each other now and then. I was seriously tempted to declare war on some of those involved on several occaisons, just to take the heat off the poor chap. Admittedly, re-writing posts in order to take into account the posts of others, who were re-acting to that post (if you can follow that) is to be frowned upon, but the actions of those ranged against TCN over the past event should also be frowned upon. He has tried to repair his actions in the "Weapons Testing" thread, issuing an apology for his nation's previous actions in this tread:

TCN would like to appoligise for its previous aggressive stance.

 

TCAF will gather information from it's own shores.

 

I hope I can be forgiven

This was posted before the Nuke Thread, showing he does have the ability to understand his actions. Sorry about this rant, but there was some things I needed to get off my chest over this incident, and I apologise if I've really pissed off those involved.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Tagmatium Rules (see edit history)

[Ide Jima]

I am inclined to agree with Van (In bet none of you are surprised given my discussions in chat and other posts on this matter).

 

1) TCN is copping out, and that's a fact.  You can't simply role play yourself into a situation and then throw in the towel when you realise you are going to lose.  It is the hight of bad sportsmanship (bad rollplayership?).  Rewriting the roll play to suit your nation better (without other players agreement) simply makes matters worse. 

 

Surely we should cut him some slack? He's probably new to the whole RP concept. Admittedly he should've read up about it first, but surely we should let him off this once. He clearly didn't know what he was doing, launching nukes at three nations, all at least 10 times bigger than him. Let him carry on with the stadium thing,

 

but if that's not popular, then we can just carry on the nuke thread.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Ide Jima (see edit history)

[Vanarambaion]

Just one minor point. I did suggest regime change with Pot, and the a coalition formed more or less on its own to impliment it. And what happened there? Pot ran. I'm sorry, but regardless of his reasons, he left in the middle of an RP, and left the rest of us hanging. This is exactly what TCN is doing. I objected to it then (not sure if I did that in public or just to myself), and I object to this now. Ret-conning (re-do's, if you will), are bullsh*t. They have no place in RPs, period. I'm sorry TCN F'ed things up, I don't like war any more than the next guy. But the things he was doing could not be ignored, regardless of how new the RPer is. I stand by each and every action I have ever made, back to when I was a n00b on these forums (a long time ago, granted, but there was a time) and hope that my fellow RPers would have the integrity to do the same thing, regardless of whether that would drop them in the proverbial drink.

[Akiiryu]

Tag, I take your point. But the fact remains that TCN, like Pot, rped himself into a corner and then decided to kill the rp when he realised the result was not going to be for his liking. As to his attempt to apologise, yes he did to N-Reich, but then went off and was equally aggressive to other nations.

 

If anything thing he should take the existance of this thread as a lesson.

 

I would hope he stays too, I would also hope he learsn from his mistakes.

 

@ IJ, he was cut a lot of slack.

 

Finally he needs to come involved in this debate.

[The Chosen Nations]

Yes, I probably do need to become involved

[Akiiryu]

Probably? I would say definitely!

[The Chosen Nations]

What I am expected to say? I have, it seems, already pissed off all of Europa with a nuke strike that I was pressured into. What can I say that will change your opionion of me, huh? Tell me and I'll say it.

[Akiiryu]

1) You were not pressured into the nuclear strike, let's get that straight from the beginning. Indeed, you were told OOC by a number of more experienced players how to get out of your position (which, by the way you have no one else to blame but yourself for getting into). This comment leaves the questionable nature of TCN having nukes aside (and your equally questionable nature of your explanation for having them).

 

2) More people are peeved by your attempt to re-run the rp so you won't be defeated than your nuclear launch (which was silly). Simply put, the nukes were not going to hit their mark. The TCN tech and military capability is so far behind IJ, Van, MS and Aki that your primitive missiles had no chance (the same can be said of your conventional military as well). What is harder for us to deal with is the havoc your attempt (with out agreement from other players) to change history to suit your country better. It not only F'ed up a heap of threads, but also smacks of bad sportsmanship on your part. I am sorry to be blunt, but you need to be told the truth.

 

3) We're not going to tell you want to say, present us with your point of view. Try discussing things (that is good advice for TCN IC as well).

 

4) We want to help you develop as a rper, and we're happy about your activity, but you need to calm down and learn to walk before you run. Listen to more experienced players, take some time to read some of the old rps, ask questions. Don't just charge at things like a bull at a gate. Circumspection is the key.

[Senator Gaius]

Amen.

[Vanarambaion]

There is something you could have done, and could still do now, to help your situation out. Look back at the threads that have gone on before here. Instead of immediately trying to expand, look at how other nations have expanded - war, almost war, peaceful assimilation, etc. Test the international system. It's probably pretty unclear to you where the various nations of Europa stand on, well, anything, right? Is that a good way for a RL nation to be? What is the likely outcome of the actions of a nation who does something that is socially repulsive to the international community. A perfect example of this is the invasion os Kuwait by Iraq in the early '90s. Even Iraq's allies lined up to take them down. You left yourself with no allies, and in that case you're not likely to very far. Consolidate your power and support your allies' actions before taking actions of your own. You'll be much more likely to succeed that way. You're not going to be a leader for a long time. I've been on here for years, and I'm by no means the leader of anything. A careful policy of international relations would get you so much further. Remember that in the future. As it is, I hope occupying your 'Kuwait' was nice while it lasted.

 

[Fleet Admiral Connor Grey]

TCN, as everyone else has said, nobody pressured you into anything.

 

I think we should just restart the thread where it left off. That way, TCN cannot change it to suit his needs, but he also cannot just leave the situation. And, maybe then we can see how he gets himself out of it. If he does, he does, if he doesn't, he doesn't, but if the role-play was started, the role-play should be finished and not altered.

[The Chosen Nations]

After careful deliberation I would be happy to re-start the thread again. I would like, as I am sure everyone would, clarification on exactly where the thread would re-start. Also could I ask that this RP be kept to one thread, as it became confusing.

 

TCN

[Akiiryu]

TCN,

 

I applaud you, as I am sure a number of other players will. The thread will start just before you launched.

 

@EE Can you please cut off the appropriate part of the thread and consign the stadium thread to the bin?

 

I think we should start just before the MS led invasion (as MS has gone to officer training).

[Europa]

It has been done.

 

The part that has been split off is now in the archive:

http://s7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.php?showtopic=1412

 

The RP will continue in this thread:

http://s7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.php?showtopic=1380

[Ide Jima]

Good choice TCN

[Vanarambaion]