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Setting The Concrete Foundation of Oyus & Her Future

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On 6/23/2020 at 10:10 PM, Oyus said:

Early 1570s  - Salvian merchants establish a trading post in modern day Costa Scura. Natives are welcoming of these newcomers, opening up trade.

Which resources are they trading? What kind of benefits does your ruler get out of it? Why would they tolerate the arrival of missionaries? This group could undermine their authority.

On 6/23/2020 at 10:10 PM, Oyus said:

???? - Contact with Limonaia. Limonaians land and offer an olive branch having learned from the mistakes of the Salvians.

This could be timed with other Limonaian explorations. I'd have a look at the dates of when they arrive in nearby places.

On 6/23/2020 at 10:10 PM, Oyus said:

1924 - Tensions in Oyussa erupt when the royal family is killed off via assassination. What could have turned into a civil war was saved by the aristocracy “giving the people a voice”. Aristocrats found the Democratic Republic of Oyus.

Did the royal family have an active political or purely ceremonial role?

On 6/23/2020 at 10:10 PM, Oyus said:

Once TMDM come to its end, it is my personal wish to move towards that expansion and molding Oyus into a sort of malevolent power in disguise. There is a lot I still want to work out and make airtight before I embark and I enjoy every bit of criticism or advice to bring me to realism. Additionally, I understand that embarking on possibly becoming ot just a thorn in the side but as a threat to neighbors that at some point there will be battles I'll lose which is perfectly fine. OOCly speaking, I want to mold Oyus into an eventual bad guy that has some sort of muscle, my expectation isn't to be ***the power*** though.

Just an idea. Using the power hidden in your offshore tax could enable you to wield some influence in buying up strategic companies in other countries. The threat of downsizing will allow you to influence political decisions elsewhere, and spread those Oyussard tentacles.

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2 minutes ago, Orioni said:

Which resources are they trading? What kind of benefits does your ruler get out of it? Why would they tolerate the arrival of missionaries? This group could undermine their authority.

Certainly something I have to think about. The questions likely would have been asked anyhow, nonetheless your asking them helps ensure they're considered. Something to think about.

3 minutes ago, Orioni said:

This could be timed with other Limonaian explorations. I'd have a look at the dates of when they arrive in nearby places.

Well, when I wrote this thread, that was likely going to be the case. However, given that what appears to be an abrupt departure from here, I am no longer interested in having Limonaians be my colonial overlords and will be exploring new suitors or even my own. I can detail further why, but in essence, Limonaia in the future will be rooted out of my history for the most part.

5 minutes ago, Orioni said:

Did the royal family have an active political or purely ceremonial role?

Oyussa has had a long tradition of a "benevolent" (something I will eventually detail, though not high on my list like other things) absolute monarchy more or less. Nothing ceremonial at all, it is how the current state was able to come to pass and not a reformed democracy instead.

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While I previously had more comments, my post was made easier by a permanent @Limonaian exit.  While certainly possible he comes back, I'll operate on the basis that you have on Discord and run without a Limonaian Oyus.

On 6/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, Oyus said:
  • Pre-Salvia -  A unified ancient civilization sort of deal - not necessarily too important to work out until the rest is.
  • Early 1570s  - Salvian merchants establish a trading post in modern day Costa Scura. Natives are welcoming of these newcomers, opening up trade.
  • Mid 1570s to 1589 - Trade is the nice way of putting it by this point as Salvian merchants actively exploit natives and missionaries attempt to forcibly convert causing grief. Conflict arises when the last straw is exhausted and Salvians are targeted. A prolonged engagement will occur for the next two decades, and recorded well enough until eventually scaring off the merchants and deterring others from bothering with Oyus until later on. 

Couple points with this.  First off, "Pre-Salvia" in this context is a large time period, ranging from whenever human landed in Oyus (several thousand years ago) to the early modern period.  I know you said this is a "general idea", but like O I just want to point out that this is something you should be thinking about - how is this "unified, ancient civilization" founded?  

Secondly, the name is a bit disingenuous since we've agreed already that Salvia has been trading with Oyus as early as 550 BC.  While I recognize this trade/contact would be rather limited, there'd certainly be increased contact throughout the centuries (this isn't even really a point at all just wanted to point it out :P)

Third, when we last discussed in March, I had kind of envisioned Salvian exploitation as rather limited as firstly there'd already be Salvians, both traders and missionaries, before the late 1500s and secondly when we were discussing in Discord the language we both used was rather vague.  However neither of these things result in limited exploitation, and I can be your bad guy if you want 😉 

I'd certainly be willing to clarify anything and everything with you.

On 6/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, Oyus said:

To begin with, demographics play a large part of how Oyus is modeled. Previously, I had figured Oyus to be more of a majority indigenous country with a foreign minority, like 60/40 split or so and largely politics would be favorable to the indigenous.

However, with the revisions I am making this set to change. While I haven't come up with exact numbers, there will not be a majority of any one group and it will be a very mixed country, though the indigenous would have the plurality with say something like the low 40s while the foreign groups as a whole would be a majority per se, though made up of several groups.

I... disagree with this.  Not really a different way to phrase this.  Unless we're talking long term colonization and efforts of colonizers locating to Oyus, people would be largely Oyussard or the numerous Palu ethnicities - that's just geography at play.  An island sees much more homogeneity than other nations.  Unless there's a colonization movement.  Which there very well could be! - your nation and history.  

 

On 6/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, Oyus said:

Limonaians would likely make up a big portion of this with being anywhere between a quarter to a third of the population. A likely third group I have more recently been considering to be part of this are Huang. Something that I would like revisit and flesh out is a potential Huang migration that helped build up Oyus. This would be drawing off of the Speed Date discussion Fulgistan and I have had and would certainly need to be had more to paint the fuller picture. The remaining groups would likely be smaller insignificant groups that you could chart on a demographic pie chart but that would be the extent of them, perhaps from neighbors like @Metztlitlaca, @Shffahkia, and/or @Gallambria

Well, Lim's departure certainly shakes this up 😅 Considering geography, Palu ethnicites from @Metztlitlaca would certainly be present since very early Oyussard history and would probably intermingle with the Oyussard natives.  I highly recommend further discussions with your Palu neighbors.  The Huang, I find, are a long shot, with Fulgi's influence diminishing by the time it reaches Yeosan, which I'd probably place as the southern border of any Huang influence.  Not saying there are no Huang or even no large minority, but you'd probably be looking at single digit percentages instead of your third largest ethnic group.

Other than that, history could play out in a way that makes any of the following the next largest groups.  If in fact there is a major colonizer movement/other major historical event, I'll eat (most of) my words - a white majority/large minority (depending on which you'd want) would certainly be probable, or Palus and Oyussards clash leading to limited migration between the two.  But just by looking at the map, we can draw clear boundaries with what your ethnic groups/cultural influences are.  Huang, Aurelians, and Marenai (from the westernmost Gallambrian islands) could very well be large, single-digit minorities (think slightly larger minorities than Asian-Americans), but geography severely limits any serious spread they could have, barring certain historical scenarios.  But a serious look at history reveals geography oft rules.

On 6/23/2020 at 4:10 PM, Oyus said:

the meager population 3 million no longer fits and sits well with me in my mind, and for me with the space Oyus has, it is entirely possible to have up to 20+ million due to a similar size of that of Taiwan. That being said, that is not what I am requesting that my population go to, but instead something more sensible in my personal opinion to something in the range of 7 to 11 million. I would be happy to have a discussion at great length to work how this would be acceptable and attainable if needed.

Agree with this a lot.  From a very brief visit to Google Earth Pro, Oyus is roughly-probably-maybe-quitelikely-around 3 times the size of Taiwan.  If I were you, I'd lean closer to 11 mil.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Salvia said:

Couple points with this.  First off, "Pre-Salvia" in this context is a large time period, ranging from whenever human landed in Oyus (several thousand years ago) to the early modern period.  I know you said this is a "general idea", but like O I just want to point out that this is something you should be thinking about - how is this "unified, ancient civilization" founded?  

Having an all inclusive history will take a long while to do right and do well. This is mostly why I am leaning to leaving it vague until a later date. I want to cover parts of my history that are very relevant to potential events that may occur in canon. (Not to say that may not have an affect, but I find the more recent events to have a larger influence and affect on this.) I don't want to force myself to punch out everything up until this point only to entirely redo it for whatever minor reason or whim I have later on. I want it to be done right the first time, which isn't what happened with my history at all. I will put a little more description in regards to this because this is mostly meant to be a lackluster detail, general and broad overview of what I intend my history to look like. A valid point, no less.

7 hours ago, Salvia said:

Secondly, the name is a bit disingenuous since we've agreed already that Salvia has been trading with Oyus as early as 550 BC.  While I recognize this trade/contact would be rather limited, there'd certainly be increased contact throughout the centuries (this isn't even really a point at all just wanted to point it out :P)

Now that you mention, we did have this discussion and it would seem I never wrote this down for consideration in my own history, so something to discuss when we do. An oversight, a mistake on my part and fair point is fair point. I'm not sure how I feel about it remaining that way as it certainly messes with what I had in mind, however, I won't discard it so quickly and keep an open mind as we have our discussion on this.

 

7 hours ago, Salvia said:

Third, when we last discussed in March, I had kind of envisioned Salvian exploitation as rather limited as firstly there'd already be Salvians, both traders and missionaries, before the late 1500s and secondly when we were discussing in Discord the language we both used was rather vague.  However neither of these things result in limited exploitation, and I can be your bad guy if you want 😉 

Yes, I can at times speak very vaguely and that is probably my fault for not being direct and clear. I want a devil in my history and that is what I had intended to use Salvia for. A "Those white men are dangerous" and effective repellant story for a later more hands off form of colonized Oyussa.

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7 hours ago, Salvia said:

I... disagree with this.  Not really a different way to phrase this.  Unless we're talking long term colonization and efforts of colonizers locating to Oyus, people would be largely Oyussard or the numerous Palu ethnicities - that's just geography at play.  An island sees much more homogeneity than other nations.  Unless there's a colonization movement.  Which there very well could be! - your nation and history.  

...

Considering geography, Palu ethnicites from @Metztlitlaca would certainly be present since very early Oyussard history and would probably intermingle with the Oyussard natives.  I highly recommend further discussions with your Palu neighbors.  The Huang, I find, are a long shot, with Fulgi's influence diminishing by the time it reaches Yeosan, which I'd probably place as the southern border of any Huang influence.  Not saying there are no Huang or even no large minority, but you'd probably be looking at single digit percentages instead of your third largest ethnic group.

So the Huang demography I include largely because Fulgers and I probably a year ago were discussing migration (the topic of V's Speed Date) of Huang to Oyus in the late part of the 20th Century as Oyus really began to roll in the dough and grow. What we had established iirc were Huang coming sort of as guest workers and being that by now Oyus had very welcoming policies, they decided they liked it after their stay in Oyus and continued to live and work here to raise families and build communities of their own, etc. I had figured that they might be a sizeable portion, but you might be right in that they may not be the third largest group and that likely would  be a slice belonging to Metzli or yourself.

A large reason why I am of the preference of there only being a plurality and not a majority of Oyus' OG people is because Oyus is intended to be a place and sanctuary for all who come to wander and remain. I don't think a nation with the gates open wouldn't be migrated to, to some degree. While I disagree with your opposition, it has illuminated in me perhaps necessitating further ways of illustrating why despite not being too colonized/imperialized it is very mixed and almost as mixed up as the local Metzli ethnic soup to my north.

On a separate note, there will still be colonization similar to what I had envisioned with Limonaia. If all goes well, my idea for replacement that you actually helped me with by linking the Darien scheme will probably be talked about relatively soon. Lots of things and discussions that on its own I will have to have.

7 hours ago, Salvia said:

Agree with this a lot.  From a very brief visit to Google Earth Pro, Oyus is roughly-probably-maybe-quitelikely-around 3 times the size of Taiwan.  If I were you, I'd lean closer to 11 mil.

I am certainly hoping for something 11 million if this is something that sits well with mods & admins, but I didn't want to seem like I wouldn't be willing to work with them even on the number and thus provided the range I would hope to raise it to. 11 million is certainly the preferred number for a variety of reasons.

Edited by Oyus
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