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Map v4: Discussion


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This evening I have update our regional map. This includes two proposals for the prime meridian. Our next move should be to decide which capital city (or other) would be best suited to serve this role as a scientific observatory. My proposal shows both Vocia in Vocenae and Tagmatica in Tagmatium. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

 

You can review this latest map here.http://z7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.ph...0#entry40002534

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I have to say, I thought it was a refreshing change when the old plot system was phased out as it allowed for greater customization and seemed more organic and creative. I would hope we could resolve

Timezones. This is a thing now. https://i.imgur.com/H6gyzMo.png Some questions for all of you. Nations. Right now I've drawn vertical lines on the exact borders of each timezone. If yo

I have had something similar in mind for my own nation for a long time.  First of all, if you read my factbook you will know how I feel about sharing the Raga sea more than I currently do. Hard no.

I have drawn up some examples of additional continents. Please know that all of these can be resized, moved, edited and removed. This is an equirectangular projection.

 

- E: Europa is placed according to our previous discussions, between the Northern Arctic Circle and Equator. Looks surprisingly small, doesn't it?

- 1: A western continent not unlike the Americas.

- 2: A southeastern continent resembling Australia on steroids.

- 3: A smaller continent just for show.

 

Proposal v1 shows a dummy continent layout. This will be heavily edited, based on your input.

 

user posted image

 

Proposal v2 shows the RL Earth in the background, so you have a sense of scale, distances and possible climates.

 

user posted image

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Ok if you allow me, I think that the continenten 1. looks to large and to many straight lines on the westcoast, 2. is of good size but can maybe be rotated 90? to the right, 3. no opinion.

 

To me it also looks that Europa is to small.

 

Maybe we can also have an Antarktis?

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To me it also looks that Europa is to small.

I must agree. Next to those other continents, our Europa looks like it is about to be bullied and kicked around. Can we not stretch the land so it grows bigger to the south and east? Like maybe unti you reach the India.

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To me it also looks that Europa is to small.

I must agree. Next to those other continents, our Europa looks like it is about to be bullied and kicked around. Can we not stretch the land so it grows bigger to the south and east? Like maybe unti you reach the India.

 

I have to third this, stretching it should work.

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I'd have to agree, Europa needs to be much, much larger. In my head is's more the size of Asia than Europe, given the abundance of nations and the huge variation of climates that we had, back in the day. Also in my headcanon I'm supposed to be like Scandinavia plus European Russia sized. tongue.gif

 

I think a merging of Continent 1 and Continent 2 would be best. Continent 1 has all the little islands and coast detail while Continent 2 has the best overall shape and size.

 

Just for the record I was also the one who suggested to Orioni that new continents be added and the old one be 'closed', in so much as claiming new territory is concerned. I mainly suggested it because Europa and that map has had so much history attached to it (and even though I'm Future Tech now, I still hold the events of my MT days to be canon in my own history).

 

So I figured that, for the current crop of new players coming in, that it would serve you all better if Europa was more of a 'planet' than just a single continent. That way you all would have a new continent to establish your own histories in without trodding all over the old stuff, and Orioni's nation would be more or less the linchpin between the two.

 

As an aside, in the past Europa was often sort of placed in the same 'world' as Q102, a region that we once had extremely close ties with. So Europa was on one side of the planet, Q102 was on the other. And for my own history, after I moved to FT I refer to this region as Europa-Earth, or a planet in the same position of Earth, but this region being the only landmass.

 

Anyway, I felt compelled to add my two cents in.

Edited by Vocenae
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Claims

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea put forward by @Vocenae. I am in favour of allowing new members to enjoy the liberty of establishing their own nations, free of the 'burden' of having to integrate with 14+ years of RP history.

"that new continents be added and the old one be 'closed', in so much as claiming new territory is concerned. I mainly suggested it because Europa and that map has had so much history attached to it."
An additional mechanic was sent to me per telegram by @Sunset_Sea_Islands.
Another thing I have noticed is the amount of new land added at once. If new nations would come to Europa they could settle in the deep west of Pseudo America or in the far east of Steroidstralia, which would completely isolate them from the community. Thanks to the inactive nations in Europa the active nations are already pretty disconnected as is, adding more land would make this worse.

 

A solution I came up with was to add the continents one by one, or even only make certain areas accessible at first. Always when Europa would reach a certain number of nations a new part of the world would be "unlocked".

 


Proposal v3 takes into account the above replies to proposals v1 and v2.

 

user posted image

 

Changelog:

  1. Positioning. The Prime Meridian is centred on Vocia, the capital of @Vocenae. (I had proposed this to both him and @Tagmatium as a sign of gratitude.)

  2. Europa. Increased in size based on multiple comments. The Equator is now more towards @Afropa. The northern Arctic Circle is now closer to @Deltannia and @Vocenae. This means Western/Occidental Europa has moved closer to the RL position of UK. Other nations like @Suverina are now in a more Mediterranean climate zone.

  3. Continent 1. Resized and merged with Continent 2 as proposed by @Vocenae. I left some interesting chokepoints. The rather straight coast at the bottom resembles erosion due to currents.

  4. Continent 2. Resized and rotated 90? clockwise as proposed by @Magnaeus. Space was left for ocean currents to pass through.

  5. Continent 3. Removed since no-one seemed interested in this proposal.

  6. Continent 4. Added to accommodate this week's merger with the members of the region UBPSSIF. I have highlighted an area for their nations to be added, and am awaiting more detailed images to add in the following update.

  7. Polar region. The Antartic region was added as proposed by @Magnaeus. For this proposal, I did not want to add a northern Arctic, as it would complicate things for current northern nations.

  8. Islands. I used some random clouds generator to add more smaller islands here and there.

    This makes things more realistic.


Proposal v4 is the same as map 3, with one significant difference.

 

user posted image

 

Changelog:

  1. Europa. The continent has been stretched horizontally as proposed by @Vocenae.
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Due to a cold I've got some days off and I've used the first one to make a proposal for the map myself. Basically I have combined v1 and v3 and edited a little.

 

Proposal v5 The results of a day at home.

 

user posted image

 

1.) Continents from v1 because I like them better that the ones in v3. I like the idea of an arid-american continent. Also v4 looks too empty.

 

2.) Maintained the enlarged Europa from v3. I wouldn't mind having a stretched Europa, but I like the original shape better. It is nicely round and it wouldn't be worth changing the "flag" of Europa.

 

3.) Copied the polar regions from v3 and added a northern one. Even though it is a cheap copy/paste of the southern one it has some interesting effects. First of all it indicates a connection between Europa and Pseudo-America which was above the sea level in prehistorical times. Also, you can calculate the axis tilt of Alemi thanks to the difference between the extension of the northern and the southern ice cap. I'm into building solar systems, so I'd could design a system that's similar, but not identical, to the Sol system, if there would be interest in that.

 

4.) Maintained the islands from v3. They look nice and because they are so scattered, they fill the vast distance between the continents.

 

5.) Moved continent 2 east. The easternmost peninsula appears on the other end of the map, so adjustment might be necessary. Continent 2 and Europa seemed to close together in my eyes and also it made space for point 6.

 

6.) Removed "Area 4". I've placed the former UBPSSIF member states in proximity to Europa, between Europa and continent 2. Futanarien is positioned at the same height as its real life counterpart, Japan, but on the southern hemisphere. My humble nation is placed equatorial, just as I wrote in my fact books and Dobby Is Free is placed in-between.

 

I'd appreciate feedback. smile.gif

Edited by Sunset Sea Islands
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I'm gonna have to side with liking Orioni's map a little bit more, though I agree with removing Area 4. As for 'nations just showing up', in RP you would more or less have been there since the beginning to 'time', so all you new nations would just be over there doing your own thing and just never would have been mentioned.

 

Sort of like how Ace Combat 4: Shattered Skies had all the other continents of the Strangereal world but never actually labeled or acted like they existed.

 

As for 'Steroidstalia' being too large and people being isolated...That's really only on the individual players. Map locations, even in MT, shouldn't matter outside of portraying a sense of realism in terms of writing how long it takes to get somewhere. It's on the individual players to not isolate themselves ICly just because you might be spread far apart. Another solution to this would be to simply allow slightly larger starter claims.

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@Sunset Sea Islands. Thank you for the idea of double polar continents. I'm still not convinced how the concept would work since Europa is so far north already. Personally, I also prefer the original Europa over a stretched version. (Less work.)

 

@Vocenae. You are right in explaining how nations just "show up". There are many ways to justify a previous absence. For example: abandoning previous isolationism, different blocs not on speaking terms, a new government just elected, decolonisation leading to a nation speaking in its own name, etc. And thank you Voc for mentioning Strangereal. Extra credit. smile.gif It inspired me to do that military-style map last year during our G7 conference.

 


Proposal v7a (equirectangular projection) merges a lot of the previous proposals.

 

user posted image

  1. Europa. Moved to the eastern hemisphere. No other changes.
  2. Continents 1+2 ("Steroidstalia"). Flipped upside-down and moved to the western hemisphere. Equally interesting geography as Europa, with many chokepoints, rugged coastlines, massive inland areas, even a northeast passage. I don't see this as a pseudo-America. Right now, since no-one is occupying this area, it can be any sort of culture really.
  3. UBPSSIF. Moved to the far-west, which leads to Europa as well.

Proposal v7b is the Natural Earth projection of v7a. This makes northern nations much larger in surface area, without having to make any distortions.(This would solve @Vocenae's question.)

 

user posted image

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Looking good there guys! I like the arctic you added. I would check to see if the eastern and western ends line up correctly. Anyway if we have a polar region will there be a chance to establish research bases? This has got me all excited and looking forward to getting my ideas out in the open! yes.gif

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Anyway if we have a polar region will there be a chance to establish research bases?

Good point, Magnaeus! The Sunset Sea Islands are also interested in a research base. If you're interested, we would like to co-found one with you. We would be ready to provide extensive funding.

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Good point, Magnaeus! The Sunset Sea Islands are also interested in a research base. If you're interested, we would like to co-found one with you. We would be ready to provide extensive funding.

That is a good idea 2-thumbup.gif The world hasn't even been settled yet, and we are already dividing the land. Funding can be share. Magnaeus has a nice comfortable banking sector.

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The world hasn't even been settled yet, and we are already dividing the land.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think unsettled land should be left for new nations, but establishing international research bases to explore the new lands is very important. The scientific advancement of the human race is very important and knowing what your planet actually is like seems like something worth investigating.

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Progress

Good morning everyone. Many thanks for all of your comments. We have really made good progress since proposal v1. Goes to show the community is interested in what is to come.

 

Deadline

A brief comment on our timing. I would like to have this discussion settled by the end of this month (June 2017). We are now June 8th, so that leaves plenty of time. But once this month is passed I want to work on a larger version of the final proposal. Two months of discussion seems plenty, right? It would also mean we can open up the globe in time for summer (and holidays with loads of free time).

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Proposal v8 is based on both v7a and v7b (see above). I applied stretching to the northern parts of Europa, to allow for different projections. Normally the areas closer to the poles are deformed by longitudes (vertical lines) coming closer together. This proposal takes care of that.

 

It also makes northern lands look larger, for example: @Suverina, @Vocenae and Tagmatium. Nations closer to the Equator are less affected by this change.

 

user posted image

 

To make these deformations even more visible, I set up this interactive globe for you to play with: https://www.maptoglobe.com/H16GQ2GXb?key=Hkg6zX3f7b

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To make these deformations even more visible, I set up this interactive globe for you to play with: https://www.maptoglobe.com/H16GQ2GXb?key=Hkg6zX3f7b

Looks really neat! 2-thumbup.gif But you should go over the shorelines once more. You can clearly see which continents were deformed or rotated. This should be fixed for the final version. The landmasses themselves look great, I would be happy with this map.

 

EDIT: Continent 1 looks a little squished though. Especially the east coast. Maybe this could be fixed by moving 1 and 2 westwards and de-squishing 1 eastwards.

Edited by Sunset Sea Islands
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So, now I finally have a chance to take a look at this.

 

My first thought is that maybe we don't need to put ourselves on a globe, we have survived well without having a clear reference to a globe. We should settle the scale of the map though. But we would survive with just climate zones, like we did before. But of course if we add a new continent we need to be on a globe so you can move from Eastern Europa to Western Whatever. Hm... Don't know, I feel like Europa needs to be bigger, but the meridians screws everything u?-

 

Secondly, about the equator and arctic circle, this puts Suverina far much more south Than I'd like, ideally I'd like south Suverina to be at ~40?N

 

But if we have a globe and must have equator, we can have the southern hemisphere mostly just made up of water. I'm thinking this because it feels weird adding pieces south and having original Europa just in the North.

 

Regarding continents I don't fully grasp why exactly we need all that space. Europa in its heyday wasn't even nearly full. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it seems a bit megalomanic. Optimism is good, but realism is good to?

 

If we are to add new contintents I have two suggestions, both include the southern hemisphere being mostly water:

1: We add two. Both contintents roughly 40% the size of Europa and also adding some islands around Europa and between Europa and new contintents. (islands belonging directly to new contintents should count to their 40% share of size)

2: I think my first suggestion adds too much new land. So my second suggestion is adding one new contintent 50% of Europa and then some new islands around Europa and between new contintent and Europa. (Islands adjacent to new continent count for their 50% size of Europa) The second suggestion is my favourite.

 

I really, really, don't see why we need that much land. If you really feel like you need a new continent, fine, I can go along with that, but adding something so massive means we'll have a sh*t tonne of space being just empty. Also, I feel as if the new continent(s) need to be closer to Europa, otherwise we will just seperate us too much, I love the closeness the one contintent created, nobody could do anything without anyone being too far away to react to it. Ii was my though that the idea behind one continent was closeness and that multipile continents and spreading out of the earlier map resulted in less interaction.

 

Also, make sure there are at least one panama/suez canal place on new continent.

 

I vehemently disagree with these new ultra huge continent and distance between it and original Europa. I think we're adding lots of land we don't need and I also think we're messing up the concept of our region which made so much sense in regards to interacting and not separating nations too much.

 

If I got to decide, I would only add minor new territory, like some large, medium and small islands around the old continent. Maybe 2-3 islands big enough to contain two nations and then some medium and small ones. I really love islands.

 

If I could, I would veto the current ideas brought forth. Sorry, but I don't like it and can't see the point really. But yeah, you can still make it happen of course.

 

 

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@Sunset Sea Islands

 

But you should go over the shorelines once more. You can clearly see which continents were deformed or rotated. This should be fixed for the final version. The landmasses themselves look great, I would be happy with this map.
1/ I will do this when the final position has been settled. Increase size by 200%, retrace the coastlines, generates more rough edges. For this round of proposals it is too much work.

 

EDIT: Continent 1 looks a little squished though. Especially the east coast. Maybe this could be fixed by moving 1 and 2 westwards and de-squishing 1 eastwards.
2/ Looking at the globe, I can see what you mean. I will stretch the eastern coastline until it comes closer to the Europa continent. This could also be used to explain geographic links and earlier colonisations. (Suverina mentioned the sea distances may be too great.)

 


@Suverina

 

My first thought is that maybe we don't need to put ourselves on a globe, we have survived well without having a clear reference to a globe. We should settle the scale of the map though. But we would survive with just climate zones, like we did before. But of course if we add a new continent we need to be on a globe so you can move from Eastern Europa to Western Whatever. Hm... Don't know, I feel like Europa needs to be bigger, but the meridians screws everything u?-
3/ If you re-read the entire topic, you can see how the discussion evolved from wanting a better understanding of climate, into one about the rest of the world: see 14/08/2016, and 11/04/2017. It also builds on @Vocenae's suggestion of "locking" old Europa to new players, and having them emerge on new continents. This would achieve two goals: respect old canon, and allow new life. I think we both agreed earlier that the alternative of a hard-reset, to start again from zero, was off the table. http://z7.invisionfree.com/Europa/index.ph...post&p=22051397

 

Secondly, about the equator and arctic circle, this puts Suverina far much more south Than I'd like, ideally I'd like south Suverina to be at ~40?N
4/ Certainly possible. Just know that the Northern nations above you need to stay habitable as well. I always imagined Suverina as a semi-mediterranean culture, with its dominance over the Rage Sea. Perhaps I can send some warm or cold ocean currents your way to give you another climate?

 

But if we have a globe and must have equator, we can have the southern hemisphere mostly just made up of water. I'm thinking this because it feels weird adding pieces south and having original Europa just in the North.
5/ Proposals from v3 to v8 have no land directly south of Europa, except for the Antarctic. Do keep in mind that Sa Hara and Afropa are probably on/near the Equator. Also having just Europa on a big water world makes me really sad.

 

Regarding continents I don't fully grasp why exactly we need all that space. Europa in its heyday wasn't even nearly full. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it seems a bit megalomanic. Optimism is good, but realism is good to?
6/ See my 3rd anwer. For a certain point of view I can see how this could look megalomanic. smile.gif I think I prefer to call it ambitious.

 

If we are to add new contintents I have two suggestions, both include the southern hemisphere being mostly water:

1: We add two. Both contintents roughly 40% the size of Europa and also adding some islands around Europa and between Europa and new contintents. (islands belonging directly to new contintents should count to their 40% share of size)

2: I think my first suggestion adds too much new land. So my second suggestion is adding one new contintent 50% of Europa and then some new islands around Europa and between new contintent and Europa. (Islands adjacent to new continent count for their 50% size of Europa) The second suggestion is my favourite.

7/ I received the Google docs you sent me. I'll comment on those. You are also welcome to share them here. (Label it Proposal v## to help keep the discussion easy to follow.)

 

I really, really, don't see why we need that much land. If you really feel like you need a new continent, fine, I can go along with that, but adding something so massive means we'll have a sh*t tonne of space being just empty. Also, I feel as if the new continent(s) need to be closer to Europa, otherwise we will just seperate us too much, I love the closeness the one contintent created, nobody could do anything without anyone being too far away to react to it. Ii was my though that the idea behind one continent was closeness and that multipile continents and spreading out of the earlier map resulted in less interaction.
8/ If you find the new lands to be too far, this can be moved around. The real world is a pretty big place as well. I thought we could use a bit more realism to stimulate our ideas and open up new possibilities.

 

Also, make sure there are at least one panama/suez canal place on new continent.
9/ Current proposal of a western continent has at least 3 chokepoints, and allows for a northern passage if climate change is real. Europa itself has many of those as well: Tagmatium's canal with the Raga Sea, Jilderen's pirate story, Koku Bay.

 

I vehemently disagree with these new ultra huge continent and distance between it and original Europa. I think we're adding lots of land we don't need and I also think we're messing up the concept of our region which made so much sense in regards to interacting and not separating nations too much.
10/ See my 8th answer. I think the interaction would be more due to having more active members than closer distances on the map. If anything, putting some distances between us will decrease the chances of global conflict.

 

If I got to decide, I would only add minor new territory, like some large, medium and small islands around the old continent. Maybe 2-3 islands big enough to contain two nations and then some medium and small ones. I really love islands.
11/ See my 3rd answer about "locking" old Europa. If we don't give new players room to grow, then we are pushing away new life. Europa is old, but it is not dying. Proposal v7a includes many, many new islands. Perhaps I can make you happy by adding some to the west of you? By the way, I was thinking that perhaps an explorer from Suverina or Adaptus could have explored the new world.

 

If I could, I would veto the current ideas brought forth. Sorry, but I don't like it and can't see the point really. But yeah, you can still make it happen of course.
12/ I understand how you feel. It is the reason why I am reluctant to touch the Europa continent itself. The latest proposal v8 stretches it to compensate for map projections. I think I prefer proposal v7b for practical reasons. (So we can have our cake and eat it too.) Edited by Orioni
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I understand how you feel. It is the reason why I am reluctant to touch the Europa continent itself. The latest proposal v8 stretches it to compensate for map projections. I think I prefer proposal v7b for practical reasons. (So we can have our cake and eat it too.)

I agree, the stretched Europa doesn't look nice. However, we should keep a version of the final map with a deformed Europa, so we will be able to put in on a globe like in v8.

 

 

I love the globe.

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I will come with a lengthy response, probably on Wednesday since Today and Tomorrow I am busy 14 hours per day at least.

 

I can share my map conceptw in the upcoming days. Although I did have some nice new ideas, but I have to be at home to edit the maps, I'll probably get home on the 26th. Will still post my current map concepts today or tomorrow or so.

 

One thing I will demand is more islands. wink.gif I love islands and they are awesome for like iolonies/bases and stuff like that. And they have proved quite popular with many nations in the past have wanted and/or had them.I love 'em! More islands almost everywhere,

 

Regardless of what happens I also would like more land in the Arctic area. Smaller land/islands and maybe one big like chunk of land like RL Greenland.

 

I'd also like to add, when I toyed around with my concepts I felt as if I created something that wouldn't wreck the old dynamics of our region. So I think my concerns about interaction and isolation can be solved through a good design. Having a continent placed like the Americas is in RL in relation to Europa we run the RL risk of isolating eachother and interacting less, like historically RL. We could end up with two groups playing basically separately from eachother - classic parallel play scenario. Such a set up I feel even incentives me from basically making a Monroe doctrine for old continent Europa.

 

But now I am trying to work with you, regardless of how I feel. If people want something I'm all for makings sure we look at all alternatives and go through our options thoroughly before settling on something.

 

Also y'know, when I came we still had the old map. The thought of staking my new claim among you ginormous oldies didn't feel scary at all. When claiming an empty plot you aren't bound by the history of the plot. I may have fought a war on province Y and that will be a part of my history, but when the plot owner is gone and the kingdom of grasslands claims plot Y s/he creates his/her story. Necessary abstractions. A new continent won't be new for that long. It's a matter of time before some people have settled there and it won't be a blank slate in any regard. In 6-12 months settling on the new continent will feel just like settling on the old continent. Also keep in mind that after our dark ages Europa is a blank slate in many waysuppliers, diplomacy, cooperation and whatever rp interactions are quite open.

Now this is not an argument that says we shouldn't add new continents, but if we do it should be for good reasons. A new open shiny new continent will rather soon just be another continent comparable to the old continents.

 

I think new players would benefit more from us creating a system to guide new members and helping the establish stuff. Getting to now a couple of older members really helped me adjust, and I was fully new to nationstates. But while experiences may differ it's quite overwhelming to come to a new place like this, it'seems hard as it's like semi-sandbox but still has a lot of rules and stuff you need to know. It seems as lately we have been focusing on making additions, which while maybe great may add to the complexity further, we must also focus on improving on what we already have.

 

Btw, I am very much for Europa being on it's own planet and not part of something abstract unknown world. It been as if Europa was located on a flat planet and that hasn't felt very logical.

 

So this became more than intended, but it's not in-depth as I'm on a train and that'she not a very good environment for me to do something thoroughly.

 

 

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